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who died ?Colossians 2:9
Berean Study Bible
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
who died ?
All these scriptures you bolded say that the fire is eternal, not that torture is eternal. God said that sinners will be Burned Up in that eternal fire! 2 Thessalonians 1:9The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife. Just as the Righteous experience everlasting bliss with Christ the wicked experience everlasting punishment with their father the devil.
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude 1:4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. got?
hope this helps !!!
@eleos1954
So much for death equaling "ceasing to exist" eh ?
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
hope this helps !!!
natures do not die, people/persons dieJesus unlike us has two full natures.
Was the human nature of Jesus changed into the divine nature of the Son of God?
No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one Person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.
the truth in the parable/story Jesus told evades you are expected since you read your "false " doctrine into the passageThis is a parable ...
Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to invalidate the popular tales of revelations from the dead. The first part of the parable undermines the credibility of such a genre by using humor and sarcasm in its depictions of the afterlife, as understood in such stories.
However, the main thrust of the parable comes in the second part where Jesus demolishes popular expectations as reflected in the request of the rich man and emphasizes that (a) supposed revelations from the dead do not bring repentance—Scripture does; (b) any return from the dead will come only through bodily resurrection, not through any other means; and (c) there are no eyewitnesses with tales from the dead outside the Bible.
Today, as in the time of Jesus, tales of revelations from the afterlife abound, whether in the form of near-death experiences, dreams, visits from ghosts, or other means. Even within Christian circles such stories circulate, and their revelations are even used as a witness to call people to repentance.
To all such, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, properly understood, is a stark reminder that the only tool in bringing people to repentance and saving faith is Scripture, the sure and powerful Word of God. Anything supposedly coming from the dead is not from God and should be shunned.
hope this helps ;o)
Um those quotes about weeping and gnashing of teeth refer to believers, not unbelievers. Fire always means testing. Unbelievers do not need to be tested. This is for false prophets etc. Among believers.The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife. Just as the Righteous experience everlasting bliss with Christ the wicked experience everlasting punishment with their father the devil.
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude 1:4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. got?
hope this helps !!!
natures do not die, people/persons die
next............................
If someone is destroyed, i.e. no longer exists, how can they be "away from the presence of the Lord" or anything else?All these scriptures you bolded say that the fire is eternal, not that torture is eternal. God said that sinners will be Burned Up in that eternal fire! 2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
Find alternative meaning for these scriptures:If someone is destroyed, i.e. no longer exists, how can they be "away from the presence of the Lord" or anything else?
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi the word translated destruction in this vs. occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is the definition from BDAG Greek lexicon.
ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
Link to earlier edition. http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
I just have a lot of trouble believing that a just and righteous God would have someone suffer for eternity simply because they chose to to live their life without Jesus as Lord.
And Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures as per 1 Corinthians 15That Jesus is both God and human is a mystery beyond our limited experience. Yet no other explanation upholds all that Scripture says about Jesus Christ. Understanding this essential truth is more than an intellectual exercise. It involves appreciating the great depths of God’s love for us.
Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of a woman (Matthew 1:20), was the union of God and humankind for the express purpose of providing a Savior for us (verse 21). This Savior would have a vital and unique quality—he would be Immanuel, which means “God with us” (verses 22-23). He was indeed fully God and yet in an amazing, glorious way, he was “with us” by being fully one of us.
Jesus is fully God and fully human.
As I understand it, this was a parable told by Jesus to the Pharisees. He wrote it in a symbolic way that THEY would understand. He was NOT writing it to Christians as AN ACTUAL PICTURE OF WHAT HELL WILL BE LIKE. For instance, how could the "spirit" of a man be thirsty? It is obviously written in a very symbolic way just as much of Revelation is written mostly in symbols.@eleos1954
So much for death equaling "ceasing to exist" eh ?
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
hope this helps !!!
This again a very strong argument for annihilationism. "Destruction", not eternal punishment.Find alternative meaning for these scriptures:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." (KJV)
And
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
death is death (cease to exist).
I'll admit I didn't read all of your post but you and I agree on the basic question: "Torturing is completely out of Gods character of love." When we see something that does not fit God's character, we should question it! I don't think there is any other issue found in God's word that does not seem to fit with His character! Sincere Bible students should take a hard look at the history of this theology that says an unbeliever suffers eternally in Hell!Couldn't quote your entire post ... too many characters ... people will need to refer back to it.
How happy are you (and others) going to be in heaven knowing people are "burning forever" (suffering for eternity)? Perhaps your mother, father and/or children/grand children?
Torturing is completely out of Gods character of love.
What does the word destruction mean? Destroyed.
What does the word perish mean (death)
Whether or not hell-is-forever is important because it portrays God's character as perceived by doubters and unbelievers. Is God just and merciful? Or vengeful and monstrous?
The wicked will be totally destroyed.
'Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, some must die.' (2 Samuel 14:14, Joab speaking, military commander under King David)
The Old Testament does not teach about any particular kind of hell after death. In the Old Testament, Jews thought that people – non-Jews (Gentiles) for sure – just die ('cannot be recovered,' end of existence), like every other living thing.
'A little while, and the wicked will be no more ...' (Psalm 37:10, Psalmist speaking)
In the Old Testament times, Jews believed that human life is short and death is end of existence. The important thing is preserving life of the nation. 'Will be no more' means no existence.
'... though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers flourish, they will be forever destroyed' (Psalm 92:7, Psalmist speaking)
Same words used by Jesus in the New Testament (see below). 'Forever destroyed' means end of existence, much different than alive forever in hell.
''Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evil doer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,' says the Lord Almighty. 'Not a root or branch will be left to them ... and they will be ashes under the soles of your feet ...'' (Malachi 4:1-3, Old Testament Prophet speaking)
Ashes mean no life, no consciousness.
'His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.' (Matthew 3:12, John the Baptist speaking)
When something is burned up, it ceases to exist, even though the fire continues until there is nothing left.
'If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.' (Matthew 5:29, Jesus speaking)
Jesus acknowledges hell as a terrible place, but no mention of time in hell.
'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking)
Only two possibilities: Eternal life or destruction. When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.
'Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' (Matthew 7:19, Jesus speaking)
Jesus giving an example about what will happen to false prophets who come in sheep's clothing. When trees are thrown into the fire, they burn up and cease to exist.
'But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matthew 8:12, Jesus speaking)
Meaning awaiting judgment, before being cast into hell. See 2 Peter 2:4 below.
'Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.' (Matthew 10:28, Jesus speaking)
Jesus says clearly that BOTH soul and body will be DESTROYED in hell. Even the soul is destroyed. When something is destroyed, it no longer exists.
'As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matthew 13:40-42, Jesus speaking)
Weeds thrown into fire become dry, burn up and cease to exist.
'Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matthew 13:47-50, Jesus speaking)
Dead fish rot and cease to exist. When any living thing is thrown into a blazing furnace, it is killed and ceases to exist.
'And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.' (Matthew 18:9, Jesus speaking)
Doesn't say people will live forever in hell. When something is thrown into fire it is consumed, burned up, ceases to exist, even tho the fire continues until everything is in ashes.
➤ 'If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed with two hands than to go into hell, where the fire can not be put out.' (Matthew 18:18, Jesus speaking)
People die in the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (see next verse below).
'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' (Matthew 25:41, Jesus speaking)
'Then they will go away to eternal punishment (not eternal punishing), but the righteous to eternal life.' (Matthew 25:46, Jesus speaking)
Doesn't say the burning is eternal, only that the punishment is eternal – i.e., the sentence will never be commuted or changed. The judgment is for all time with no reprieve. The punishment is death, no eternal life.
'Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell' (Luke 12:5, Jesus speaking)
Jesus says there is a hell but doesn't say anything about time there before one perishes.
'But unless you repent, you too will all perish.' (Luke 13:3, Jesus speaking)
Perish means no longer alive, end of existence.
'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16, Apostle John speaking)
Does not say people will have everlasting life in hell. Says people will perish (end of existence). Where will they be when they perish? Not on earth because sinners without Christ will be cast into hell. So it must be in hell where they perish.
'My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.' (John 10:27-28, Jesus speaking)
Perish means no longer alive, end of existence. Eternal life is contrasted with perish, the alternative.
'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one [Judas] doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.' (John 17:12, Jesus praying)
When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.
'For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' (Romans 6:23, Apostle Paul speaking)
What a person gets for sin is death. Does not say eternal life in hell. This death (end of existence) is contrasted with eternal life offered through Jesus. Death is the default condition for everyone, avoidable only by accepting God's provision for salvation.
'What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction?' (Romans 9:22, Apostle Paul speaking)
When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.
'This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved — and that by God.' (Philippians 1:28, Apostle Paul speaking)
When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist. God will save genuine Christians from destruction (will continue living, eternal life).
'Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame.' (Philippians 3:19, Apostle Paul speaking)
Destruction means damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.
'He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.' (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Apostle Paul speaking)
When something is destroyed – everlasting destruction – it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist, and there is no hope of re-construction. This is the ultimate separation from God, forever.
'But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.' (Hebrews 10:39, Apostle Paul speaking)
When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist. People who have accepted Jesus as Savior are saved from destruction and given eternal life.
'For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment ...' (2 Peter 2:4, Apostle Peter speaking)
'Chains of darkness' is the dire condition while awaiting judgment, before being cast into hell.
'With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare ... That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.' (2 Peter 3:8-13, Apostle Peter speaking)
Perish means no longer alive, end of existence. When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly it ceases to exist. This passage says that the day will come when everything will collapse in flames.
'And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.' (1 John 5:11-12, Apostle John speaking)
Only two possibilities: Eternal life or no life (death, end of existence). No mention of people being punished forever in hell.
'Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.' (Jude 7, Jude speaking)
Sodom and Gomorrah are cited as examples of punishment of eternal fire. Those cities were burned out of existence (not still burning forever)
'If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.' (Revelation 14:9-12, Apostle John dream)
WORDS IN CAPS make it clear that this is only for a very narrow category of people at a later time. This is the Apostle John's dream about what will happen in the future; words quoted from a dream are not as clear as the preceding direct statements from Jesus and the Apostles. The dream says that hell fire is eternal for people who 'worship the beast and his image.'
'The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Revelation 20:13-15, Apostle John dream)
The first death is physical death and second death (after judgment) is death in hell fire. This speaks of death (end of existence) in hell, not everlasting life in hell. Any living thing thrown into a lake of fire dies.
'But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning suffer. This is the second death.' (Revelation 21:8, Apostle John dream)
Like verse above, the first death is physical death and second death (after judgment) is death in hell fire. This speaks of death (end of existence) in hell, not everlasting life in hell.
Nobody is immortal. Immortality is given (only to the saved) when He returns.
IF people are "burning in hell" having consciousness
... for eternity ... then they have been given immortality (although tortureous) and His Word does not teach this at all.
1 Corinthians 15:26
Berean Study Bible
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.
death is death (cease to exist).
Hope this helps ;o)
I am 72 years old and have been a born again Christian most of my life. Until a few years ago, I had never heard of the theology of annihilationism. I had been taught that the unbeliever suffers eternally in the fires of Hell. I've always had a problem with that and I've talked to God about it. I just have a lot of trouble believing that a just and righteous God would have someone suffer for eternity simply because they chose to to live their life without Jesus as Lord. I was riding a train from St Louis, MO to Kansas City, MO when I read about annihilationism for the first time. I was fascinated and I read the complete article and the scriptural references that really seemed to show that unbelievers are annihilated in Hell, not left to burn in the fire for eternity.
I know this is a very controversial subject and I know that most people reading this do not accept the teaching of annihilationism. After studying it thoroughly for years, I can only say that I am 90% convinced of its reality. I believe all the study on this subject breaks down to two important questions:
#1 - It is obvious that there is a fire in Hell that cannot be quenched and burns for eternity according The Word. The annihilationist simply says that although the Fire is eternal, that does not mean that the unbeliever will continually burn in the fire and never burn up. ***Rather, the person, (body, soul, and spirit) are thrown into the fire and only suffer long enough for their body, soul, and spirit to be totally annihilated.
#2 - As I understand it, suffering for eternity in Hell was a theology created by the Catholic church to frighten the people into serving the church and avoiding this eternal punishment. Also, the Old Testament seems to describe Hell as simply going into darkness and then into eternal sleep.
I'm not a good enough Bible student to set forth the scriptures that are in question here. There are many articles on the internet that show in detail why some believe in annihilationism over eternal suffering. I know God is eternal and we cannot put Him in a box of our own belief system but when I study all of the other attributes of God, the idea of making the spirits of people suffer for eternity has never seemed to me to fit with His other attributes. All I can do is hope that the annihilationists are right because I don't want to think about people who were actually pretty good people suffering for eternity. We all know some very gentle, loving people who simply have decided they don't need Jesus but otherwise live a moral life. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Agree and our human bodies can die and so did Jesus as a human. When we die, our physical body dies yet our soul and spirit remain. Our souls are eternal and they never die. To be absent from our bodies is to be present with the Lord declared the Apostle Paul. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His physical body died, but his person/soul is eternal and did not die. Jesus proclaimed to the thief on the cross that after his death he would be with Jesus in Paradise that very day.That Jesus is both God and human is a mystery beyond our limited experience. Yet no other explanation upholds all that Scripture says about Jesus Christ. Understanding this essential truth is more than an intellectual exercise. It involves appreciating the great depths of God’s love for us.
Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of a woman (Matthew 1:20), was the union of God and humankind for the express purpose of providing a Savior for us (verse 21). This Savior would have a vital and unique quality—he would be Immanuel, which means “God with us” (verses 22-23). He was indeed fully God and yet in an amazing, glorious way, he was “with us” by being fully one of us.
Jesus is fully God and fully human.
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