Originally Posted by Curious Atheist
You show your ignorance time and time again with your replies. You have almost no understanding of the natural world, I am happy to explain but I am not optimistic you will listen or give it any thought.
I love you too, honey.
In every thread that you've started, you advance some factual claims, your factual claims turn out to be wrong, and you respond by declaring that everyone who disagrees with you about anything is "ignorant" and "stupid" and "indoctrinated" and "close-minded" and so forth. Which you're free to do, of course, but how do you think anyone reading your posts is going to respond? Do you think that you're going to convince us of your righteousness and superiority when all you can do is lash out with childish insults?
I called you ignorant, which is as far as I can tell ‘right on the money’. Here is the definition:
Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy".
So I said you lack information on the natural world, I did not mean it to be taken as a childish insult, sorry. I have never claimed to be superior or righteous, you are just forming your own opinion of me and filling in the gaps for yourself.
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I have not avoided your question at all. I have said directly that I see virtually no similarities between chimps and humans. Human beings evolved from animals, and the closest survivors to us on the evolutionary tree are chimpanzees. However that does not mean that humans are animals or that humans are similar to animals. CBS television network evolved from a company that made lightbulbs. That doesn't mean that CBS is a company that makes light bulbs or is similar to such a company.
It is confusing you can say humans are not animals, why does it matter so much to you to distinguish your species? Your example is ridiculous…a better one would be that the jet fighter evolved from the glider, but that doesn’t mean it is a pla…oh hang on…
We ARE chemicals
If were to look up the American Chemical Societies' manual of chemicals, would I find us listed in there?
This my friend, is why I call you ignorant. Again, I mean it in the literal sense of the word. Humans are made from a few base elements, elements are made from chemicals. What I said is as true as saying we are all made of atoms, which you don’t seem to have a problem with. We are just walking bags of chemical reactions, simple biology is all you need to understand this. So when I say ‘read a book’ again, I mean it literally.
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Well, those right there seem like pretty huge differences if you ask me. Let me give you some more: humans can speak a language,
So do whales, primates, birds, fish etc. so we are hardly unique
read, write, do math, study science, study history, philosophize, theologize, create and use technology, categorize, think abstractly, plan and organize societies, cities, countries, and so forth.
Animals can do simple maths, use tools etc. Much of what you see as remarkable is really due to accumulative knowledge, team work and higher intelligence. A group of 100 uneducated men on island are hardly going to inherently know how to use electricity and invent the internet. We do not fully understand what animals think, but what you describe is due to intelligence. After all advanced technology really is indistinguishable from magic.
No animals on earth can do these things. It looks to me like you're the one who's denying what any child can and often does point out. I know of no child who's incapable of telling the difference between a person and an animal. All kinds of buildings and doors have signs saying "no animals allowed", and everyone walks through those doors, including you. Therefore everyone understands the difference between humans and animals.
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Try looking past the superficial. Yes we keep wild animals out of buildings, that does not mean we do recognise ourselves as part of the animal kingdom and as primates. So ‘therefore’ you are wrong in your assumptions. There are more similarities than differences when you stop focusing on modern technology, which has only been around as the name suggests in ‘modern times’. If it helps, look at the OT and how uncivilised humans can be on a few thousand years ago. Or primitive African tribes which is the way humans lived for millennia.
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- [FONT="]"live in complex social groups". Do chimps have governments? Schools? Stores? Clubs? Companies? Regiments? Do they give parties? Play bridge? Have debate teams? etc... Obviously chimps do not have any trace of any of any social institution? By what standards are the social groups of chimpanzees "complex"? Obviously not by human standards, though perhaps by animal standards. So if you're using a separate standard of complexity for human and chimp societies, doesn't that argue that you view humans and chimps as very different?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Try using a tribe somewhere that hasn’t been exposed to modern technology which is obscuring your point. Chimps have a complex hierarchy and help each other, ostracise ‘rude’ or bullying individuals etc. They are complex, but less intelligent. Look past your modern day surroundings and see the big picture.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]"show altruism". What sort of altruism? According to Jane Goodall, chimps eat each other's babies. That doesn't sound terribly altruistic to me. Do chimps have an analogue to Habitat for Humanity? Do they run soup kitchens? Do chimps on one continent fund hospices on a different continent? If not, then they don't show altruism by human standards. They may show it by animal standards, but once again that only highlights the fact that you're using separate standards for humans and chimps.[/FONT]
[FONT="]They will care for their injured and share food, with no benefit to themselves e altruism. You honestly cannot see how silly your examples are can you? You are also being hypocritical as your examples involve money and surely it is just as generous to share your time? Isn’t that what Jesus preached? So use your example again with a true definition of altruism, instead of modern ideas.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]"work together". To what extent? Humans can work together in groups of hundreds, thousands, or even millions, on tasks ranging over months or years and having huge complexity. Can chimps? Obviously we are once again seeing vastly different standards for humans and chimps.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Why are you insinuating I am saying animals can exactly match human beings in every regard? Humans are more intelligent and our ability to work together is a huge part of our success as a species. This does not mean other animals work together in a way that is proportionate to their need to survive. It is like saying a blue whale is superior because it is bigger, or a cheetah because it is faster. We need neither of these things in order to survive.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]"use tools". Only by extremely lenient understanding of the word "tool". Show me a chimp that makes a screwdriver and then I'll be impressed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]If you can acknowledge they can use tools, showing significant intelligence then my point is made the way it was intended. But you may be impressed with this, if you put it in perspective[/FONT]
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Crow Makes Tools - YouTube[/FONT]
[FONT="]If you cannot view the video, it shows a crow attempting to lift food out of a tube with a piece of wire. It cannot do it, so it bends the wire into a hook. I think this shows noteworthy intelligence, planning and many other things. Most animals do not require much in the way of tool making in order to survive, which is precisely why they not do. Why would a chimp need a screwdriver? It needs to get food, so it has tools that allow it to do so such as digging tools and the classic termite catching in some groups. There are capuchins that smash nuts with specific stones they carry for miles to break on specific boulders, which have been worn to an extent that shows it has been going on for hundreds of generations. The natural world is incredible, it is a shame to me that it doesn’t meet your expectations…[/FONT]
[FONT="]Obviously if we saw any human being whose achievements in terms of social interaction, altruism, group work, or tool use were at or near chimp level, we could only describe that person as being severely [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. We don't act like animals and it's a darn good thing we don't.[/FONT]
Throw famine, greed and survival in to the mix and you may be surprised how animalistic humans can act. Do I need to give examples? Humans show many tendencies for evil, war, domination and hate you simply won’t find in nature. Is this really something to be proud of? Christians themselves worship a deity that condones genocide (Noah’s ark and murdering first born sons by his own hand, and the order he gave to wipe out entire cities, smashing babies etc).
[FONT="]But I can see we will never agree on this and maybe neither of us is right. I however think you believe humans are special, so try and find examples to prove thus. I have no agenda either way so I am merely presenting the facts as I see them in a neutral as possible way. Many animals are mistreated due to this attitude though which I would like to stop. I do not like Chinese medicinal practices, especially since it has no effect. I do not like the devastation of the Madagascan rainforest as they believe their God won’t ever let it disappear, I dislike the massacre of buffalo in American history and the antics of Sarah Palin in modern times. I think animals and nature are to be respected, I personally like to treat animals as close to equals as possible.[/FONT]
