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Animals and creation

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by cosmokitty, Dec 30, 2002.

  1. cosmokitty

    cosmokitty New Member

    40
    +2
    Atheist
    Okay, I'm new here so bear with me.  It's a what if question.  And no, I don't know if it's been discussed before. 

    Let's say that in the "beginning", God created the earth, Adam and Eve, etc.  The world was perfect, no wars, famine, blah blah blah.  Do you think the animals ate each other?  Were there chances of genetic problems like there is now?  (I'm sure you've seen animals born with deformities.) 

    So since Adam and Eve sinned, the world is not perfect.  I just wondered if anyone had considered why the "sin" had to have such an effect on the rest of the world and other creatures.

    Any thoughts?

      :confused:
     
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  2. WinAce

    WinAce Just an old legend...

    +47
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    It had to have such an effect on animals because otherwise the ancient Hebrews would have no explanation myth as to why the natural world was such a gruesome torture pit for its innocent non-human inhabitants.

    ... Not to say that a benevolent entity allowing trillions of puppies, kittens and rabbits to die agonizing deaths because two humans ate a magic fruit is an actual explanation...

    Speaking of which, we find T-Rex and other carnivores with
    digested animal bones inside from waaay before humans came on the scene. This unequivocally demonstrates death and suffering existed before any Fall would have occurred.

    Moreover, the existence of finely-designed organisms like the Candiru fish, which crawls up the urethra of unsuspecting human swimmers, deploys special barbed spines to anchor itself in place, and sucks blood until you ... amputate a certain part or die... Speaks volumes about the darkest recesses of the mind of whoever made it.
     
  3. Jahservant

    Jahservant New Member

    20
    +0
    When God abandoned Adam and Eve he abandoned their place of dwelling as well-the earth. Without his protection things began to become disorganized biologically.

    Also, please keep in mind that animals never were created to be individually perfect. They were not individually guaranteed eternal life. God chose to limit eternal life to his heavenly and earthly children whom he created in his image of love justice, wisdom and power.

    So animals were susceptible to death from the beginning.
    Nevertheless under God's guidence the predator prey present situation would not have developed. There is also the very real possibility of genetic tampering by rebel angels--Satan and his demons.
     
  4. euphoric

    euphoric He hates these cans!!

    480
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    Who, Humans?  If human beings are the image of Yaweh's love, justice and wisdom, then he's even more frightening then I thought.  I have a dog, love him to death.  Now, if he was the image of Yaweh's love, justice and wisdom then I might reconsider the Christianity thing.

    So, like Rosemary's Baby meets the Island of Dr. Moreau?

    -brett
     
  5. Jahservant

    Jahservant New Member

    20
    +0
    question:
    Are humans in God's image today?


    Response:

    No, not humans AFTER the fall.
    Humans after the fall do not reflect the image of God.
    They distort his image.
    They are an aberration of nature.
    That is why the need for redemption arose.


    Question:
    Similar to the Island of Doctor Moreau?


    Answer:

    Maybe!
    Certainly the predator-prey scenario does NOT reflect the personality of a loving God. It reflects more of what we would deem a malevolent nature. So It could well be possible that the animal creation was tweaked a bit by these malevolent beings. It could also be due to the confusion of nature that ensued once God left man's home for man alone to govern as requested via rebellion.

    It is clear that such animal behavior was NOT part of God's original plan.


    Isaiah 11:6
    The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling [ 11:6 Hebrew; Septuagint [ lion will feed ] ] together; and a little child will lead them.
    (Whole Chapter: Isaiah 11 In context: Isaiah 11:5-7)


    Isaiah 11:7
    The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
     
  6. cosmokitty

    cosmokitty New Member

    40
    +2
    Atheist
    Thanks for the posts so far everyone!  It's definitely food for thought.

    RE: 

    Isaiah 11:6
    The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling [ 11:6 Hebrew; Septuagint [ lion will feed ] ] together; and a little child will lead them.
    (Whole Chapter: Isaiah 11 In context: Isaiah 11:5-7)


    Isaiah 11:7
    The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.thought.  Happy New Year!

    Interesting....
     
  7. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

    +1,758
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    Is this to be taken literally?
     
  8. cosmokitty

    cosmokitty New Member

    40
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    Atheist
    Hi TheBear; which part are you referring to?  If it's the original post, yes!  I really want to know if and where there are biblical references to animals in the bible.  Unfortunately, I do not have one and don't study it like I used to.  But, I will be getting one soon.
     
  9. TheBear

    TheBear NON-WOKED

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  10. euphoric

    euphoric He hates these cans!!

    480
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    If they were reflection of god's wisdom, why were they stupid enough to eat he fruit? Seems like the reflection was a bit flawed in the first place.


    Interesting hypothesis, do you have any evidence to support it? Perhaps evidence of a sudden change in the genetic code of predatory animals?

    Let's take wolves as an example; the adult Canadian Timber Wolf is a predatory machine. They have large brains and are considerably smarter than even the brightest domestic dogs. They have a highly developed social order and efficiently coordinated hunting patterns. They have long, powerful legs for chasing down large prey over great distances. And more importantly they have strong jaws with long, sharp canines that are very effective for gripping and tearing flesh. There is considerable evidence that these traits were present in wolves long before human beings came along. So how does your theory explain these traits prior to the existence of humans? What purpose did long canines and powerful jaws serve other than predation?

    -brett
     
  11. LewisWildermuth

    LewisWildermuth Senior Veteran

    +118
    Christian
    Single
    There is the question of how much of the Bible is to be taken literaly.

    I personaly think that the story of creation and the fall was just that, a story. When you boil it down to it's basic meaning, God created everything, God is concerned about us, it's our responsibility for what our choices are, there is truth to it, as far as the rest... No I don't think creation happened that way to the letter.
     
  12. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

    +373
    Methodist
    Private
    But isn't this referring to a future utopia, not a past reality?  To get the context, you have to go back to Isaiah 10:20-25.  All these things in Isaiah 11 will come to pass after the Israelites return from being scattered by the Assyrians. Don't forget Isaiah 11:8, where children can play with poisonous snakes and insects.

    Genesis 1 and 2 creation stories have nothing that hints of the idyllic state you propose in the first post of the thread.  This whole theology of a "perfect" world without carnivory is an invention of people; it's not Biblical that I can find.
     
  13. Athlon4all

    Athlon4all I'm offline indefintely

    525
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    Nope. Genesis 1:29-30 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." The predatory characteristics of some animals (like Lions for example) probably, like for cutting certain plants that could nbot be easily cut. Or with Dinosaurs, maybe they were able to eat plants that others couldn't reach.

    EDIT: Oh, I do think that Isaiah 11:6-7 is reffering to the Millenial Kingdom. But this does show evidence that it is God's perfect plan to not have animals eat each other. This does show good supporting for Literal Genesis 1:29-30. God intended the Earth andf Garden of Eden to be the perfect habitat for Man and for all life on earth forever. However, Man chose to disobey God in the Garden in the test of Satan.

    Someone asked for evidence in DNA changes that woiuld cause this. We cannot know exactly what the Curse did to the world, just as we can't know for certain what changes the flood brought. But, reidence in the Bible shows that the fall did cause animals to beign to show predator-prey relationship.
     
  14. Orihalcon

    Orihalcon crazy dancing santa mage

    595
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    i guess he wasn't very nice to plants then =P
     
  15. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    I say absolutely.

    This will be part of the new earth spoken of in Revelation 21.
     
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