angry all the time

[jande2211]

but you should be ready to forgive before they ask I think.. and if you see your enemy hungry feed him.. should you meet your enemy with a smile?

Just read this again and have a question for you . . . Do you really think Jesus smiled at Herod?

 

[mikeforjesus]

Jesus being God knows the heart and thoughts of people... He knows if the person will change in time or not...

But our enemies are human just like us... we dont know if by being kind to them if they will change in time.. (and we dont know who will be saved at the end either).. maybe we should not meet them with a smile at certain times.

 

[jande2211]

Jesus being God knows the heart and thoughts of people... He knows if the person will change in time or not...

But our enemies are human just like us... we dont know if by being kind to them if they will change in time.. (and we dont know who will be saved at the end either).. maybe we should not meet them with a smile at certain times.

Huh? Jesus knows if the person will change or not?? Ah, the free will thingie. Totally different topic. Personally, I'm of the biblically sound conviction that God can only know the knowable, so yeah, He could know current thoughts.

Yes, our human enemies are just like us (but for the Grace of Christ, amen). Your point? Mine is, and has been -- and based on Scripture -- that it doesn't matter if they will (might) change or not - that's the future, a complete unknown -- heck the BAD guy doesn't know what he's going to do! Ya gonna make it MY problem??!! But there is one thing we DO know: Jesus did made it known to us that IF they are not repentent, they are not deserving of forgiveness (that pesky old Luke 17:3 again, which you've not addressed and should check out). If they repent, gravy. If not, then they deserve everything that's coming to them. It's not the victim's fault if the perp doesn't repent either. That would be saying that it's God's fault when people don't repent. People are responsible for their own actions so there's nothing wrong with holding them accountable for their own actions.

Do you really, really believe it's showing kindness to forgive someone who doesn't want your forgiveness, or doesn't think he's done anything wrong??? So, if a kid wrecks his parents' car with drunk driving, and then tells them "hey, too bad! but you getter get me another car", the parents should just forgive and wipe the slate clean (even if the insurance company sends a reminder every now and then)?? No holding him accountable with paying for the damages, no censuring, no withholding Playstation, no locking him in the basement till . . . er, wait, that's illegal. Well, you get the idea. Do you really believe it's loving to forgive when the forgiveness is scorned, rejected, and totally unwarrented??

Ever read Revelations 6:9-11 yet? No? OK, I'll wait. What's your take on the reaction of those crying for vengeance? What's your take on God's reaction to them? Do you realize they are not sitting around, playing harps, singing songs and worshipping God as you would think but are in His very presence! And what are they doing??!! Gasp! They're crying out for justince/vengeance? Are they punished? Are they rebuked? Are they chided? Even close?

Please try to forget everything you think you know, and everything you've been taught. Forget what you think is best (you could be wrong). Forget what pastor/father/miniter so-n-so said (they're could just be wrong since they're only men). What does GOD say?! A novel idea! Actually read what's in the Scriptures.

Peace.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I just think they should be ready to forgive but that doesnt mean they should act like nothing happend...
Even though God forgives people He sometimes chastens them to make them less likely to sin again.. parents might have to do that too.

 

[jande2211]

I just think they should be ready to forgive but that doesnt mean they should act like nothing happend...
Even though God forgives people He sometimes chastens them to make them less likely to sin again.. parents might have to do that too.

Yes, absolutely agree. . . be ready to forgive when the offender repents, like God does and like Jesus said to do in Luke 17:3. It is sad that most of us (Christians) do forgive when we should not (no repentence) and and do not when we should (repentence) like the wicked servant didn't forgive his fellow servant.

 

[jande2211]

MikeforJesus, I'm curious as to your impressions now of the verses I mentioned, specifically Luke 17:3, Matthew 18:22-35 and Revelations 6:9-11. You never did address them specifically.

Also, would like to know your answer to this: a woman is murdered and the murderer is caught. The family doesn't forgive the murderer regardless of his state of repentence. Do you forgive him, yes or no?

 

[mikeforjesus]

I now think im probably wrong from what you say.. but I still think at the moment (maybe I should think about it more) that you should forgive still....

 

[jande2211]

Hope you think and read some more about this, MikeforJesus. And yes you should forgive . . . IF, IF, IF the offender repents.

Works for God.

Peace, and good reading.

 

[jande2211]

I now think im probably wrong from what you say.. but I still think at the moment (maybe I should think about it more) that you should forgive still....

Mike, I just had to write again and hope you get this. I was reminded of something and wanted to add for your consideration.

Jesse Ventura, while govnah of MN, offended some Christians by saying, "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people’s business." When asked by the media if he would apologize, he said, ''I think all the religious leaders will forgive me because I think that’s what religion’s about – forgiving.'' http://www.mfc.org/contents/article.asp?id=18

The emphasis is mine. So, think about it Mike. Look what he's learned! Christians will forgive him no matter what -- he never apologized to my knowledge. He's learned that repentence isn't necessary. When we Christians teach this, espouse this, we're helping people go to hell. We're forgiving people right straight to hell. That is NOT what God wants us doing.

Thank you for your time and I truly hope you come to understand this and be blessed by it.

 

[RomanPrincess]

Forgiveness is the key.

 

[jande2211]

Agreed, RomanPrincess, but ONLY when there is repentence. Ya know, like God does.

 

[BlackRain]

didn't know this would go on to be a forgiveness vs. no forgiveness. awesome. well, i think forgiveness is important. i think even if someone doesn't forgive you, you should still forgive them. if you forgive someone then something inside of you heals. something is at peace, unlike before. now, i know there are circumstances where it's ok not to forgive first and so on...which is biblical, but be on your toes to forgive.
with all that said, i'm basically preaching to myself. i went on vacation...which was nice in all, but i came back here and with in 3 days i was back to being angry. which tells me there's more going on than just people. i guess i haven't really gotten over some stuff in my life. if only i could figure out how to deal with them and let it go, but then again there's some stuff in life that you just can't get over.

 

[Jenster]

Agreed, RomanPrincess, but ONLY when there is repentence. Ya know, like God does.

I'm curious to know how you interpret the following Scripture:

Romans 5:8-11

8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

I Corinthians 13:4-5

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.


I would also make the point that forgiveness does NOT equal a lack of accountability. If the kid down the street stole money from me, I can forgive him, but I won't be leaving an unguarded wallet around him any time soon.

Peace.

 

[RomanPrincess]

Have you forgiven people who have wronged you,if they have????
jealousy leads to envy,evny leads to anger,anger leads to strife.....

 

[jande2211]

didn't know this would go on to be a forgiveness vs. no forgiveness. awesome. well, i think forgiveness is important. i think even if someone doesn't forgive you, you should still forgive them. if you forgive someone then something inside of you heals. something is at peace, unlike before. now, i know there are circumstances where it's ok not to forgive first and so on...which is biblical, but be on your toes to forgive.
with all that said, i'm basically preaching to myself. i went on vacation...which was nice in all, but i came back here and with in 3 days i was back to being angry. which tells me there's more going on than just people. i guess i haven't really gotten over some stuff in my life. if only i could figure out how to deal with them and let it go, but then again there's some stuff in life that you just can't get over.

The greatest freedom I have is knowing how God's kingdom works in this matter. I used to forgive without having gotten an apology. It always, always sent the signal that it was OK to poop all over me again. Then when I applied Luke 17:3 and the parable of the wicked servant -- which is to rebuke (or inform) the offender first, and if he repents forgive -- was there any success. And if the person did not repent, then I have done as Paul instructed: as far as is within me to do, live peaceably with all men. Most Christians forget the "as far as it is within you" part and just make themselves doormats for the world. That is not what God wants of us. God never asked us to check our self-worth or brains at the door. I've got stuff from my past too. I was molested as a child. I do not forgive the creep because he never repented. Thankfully he's dead now and cannot hurt anyone anymore. If he repented before he died, how awesome is our God to forgive him and I will rejoice with him in heaven and get to know this new creation. If he did not, then YIP YIP he's in hell and can regret for all eternity the filth and rot he perpetrated on countless children. How awesome is our God to avenge us!

 

[jande2211]

Jenster wrote:

]I'm curious to know how you interpret the following Scripture:

Romans 5:8-11

8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

I interpret it logically. The Law condemned us, rebuked us. Jesus said He did not come to judge. Guess why? We were condemned already. Did you know that? You will of course know John 3:16, but are you familiar with John 3:18? "Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Most Christians zip right by that verse. Gee, what a shame. Anyway, the Law was an open rebuke, so to speak. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. If we repent, we are forgiven. If we do not, then we are not forgiven. God made the way, making it clear we needed to be reconciled. We can do so, or not. If we do not, then we are not forgiven. All are given the opportunity. But not all will taken, and therefore cannot and will not be forgiven.

So, what do you think of this verse:

Luke 17:3 . . .
If you brother sins, rebuke him and if he repents, forgive him.

I Corinthians 13:4-5

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Huh? Who's counting? I do not keep a record of wrongs. I just do not forgive when I am not given an apology for a known (or made known to them) wrong. What do you think of this verse:

Prov 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.

I would also make the point that forgiveness does NOT equal a lack of accountability. If the kid down the street stole money from me, I can forgive him, but I won't be leaving an unguarded wallet around him any time soon.

Peace.

Could you please give me your definition of forgiveness? Seriously. I just need to know. See, you will forgive a thief who doesn't repent, but treat him as a criminal. Is this how God treats you since you were forgiven? Oh, and did you repent before God before you got His forgiveness?

So many questions. Sorry. Peace.

 

[jande2211]

Have you forgiven people who have wronged you,if they have????
jealousy leads to envy,evny leads to anger,anger leads to strife.....

Before my freedom in Christ Jesus, yes. I would forgive to their face at times. It got me nothing. Oh, it'd get me a "Yeah, well, I'm sorry about that, but . . ." But. But? BUT??? If someone's got their but in there, they ain't sorry. And like Jesse Ventura, they figured I'd forgive them no matter what and, boy did I get hit with "no matter what"!! It was an invitation to treat me very badly.

God doesn't want that for anyone. He doesn't ask it of Himself so why ask it of us?

Since my freedom in Christ, and having studied this very carefully, reading what Jesus said in his parable of the wicked servant and Luke 17:3, I do not forgive when I've confronted someone and they do not repent. I've done all I'm asked of Jesus to do, as per his instructions in Luke 17:3. If they do see what they've done, however, and are remorseful and ill over it (like, repentent), then yes I forgive. This is freedom, such freedom.

Let me ask you something here. The following are from Jeremiah 18:7-10.

7If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Please notice that He is talking about destroying a nation and has rebuked (warned) them, and they repent! And THEN He turns from what He was planning to do. This complies wonderfully with Jesus' teaching in Luke 17:3, so clear, so simple . . . rebuke, repentance, forgiveness.

My question: why doesn't God just forgive and let it go? That's what you do. That's what you're insisting I should do. So, do you think God should do things your way, or His?