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Anglo-Catholics

Albion

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I was wondering how many Anglo-Catholics pray the Hail Mary? I have several friends who do, and several who say that this isn't really permitted.

Also, some friends use a Roman Catholic rosary in their prayers and others use an Anglican. What do people here do?

:)
I'm a Prayerbook Anglican myself, but I can say this much in reply--there is really no way to be accurate when describing what "Anglo-Catholics" say or do. There is no specific definition of the term.

Many people think it implies HighChurchmanship, but it doesn't. Many others say it's to be just like Rome except no Pope, but for most Anglo-Catholics that overstates the matter. Anglo-Catholics are self-described and come in a number of varieties.

Some say the Catholic Rosary, some do so but leave off the final part of the Hail Mary, and others use the rosary but substitute prayers all over the place. To the extent that it's not "permitted," the Articles oppose praying to the saints, which is what the Rosary is about, but Anglo-Catholics normally don't recognize the Articles anyway, so once again, there is no firm, absolute answer. Incidentally, I've used the "Anglican Rosary," but it's not really a rosary, despite the similar configuration of beads.
 
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Soma Seer

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...There is really no way to be accurate when describing what "Anglo-Catholics" say or do. There is no specific definition of the term.

Many people think it implies HighChurchmanship, but it doesn't. Many others say it's to be just like Rome except no Pope, but for most Anglo-Catholics that overstates the matter. Anglo-Catholics are self-described and come in a number of varieties.

I was just about to ask, What is an Anglo-Catholic, exactly? But your explanation cleared up my confusion--by verifying that there is no solid definition. :confused:

Some say the Catholic Rosary, some do so but leave off the final part of the Hail Mary....

Is that to say that this is the (typical) Anglo-Catholic version of the Hail Mary?

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Amen.
 
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Albion

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Is that to say that this is the (typical) Anglo-Catholic version of the Hail Mary?

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Amen.

I certainly wouldn't call that a "typical" Anglo-Catholic approach to the matter, but I know Anglo-Catholics who do it that way...and for a very sensible reason. The part you've reproduced here is from the New Testament. But the second section ("Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, ....") is not.

In addition, it's clearly to be praying TO Mary, petitioning her. And also, it was not part of the prayer until fairly recent history when it was added to the first part by a decision of the Pope.
 
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Soma Seer

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The part you've reproduced here is from the New Testament. But the second section ("Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, ....") is not.

In addition, it's clearly to be praying TO Mary, petitioning her. And also, it was not part of the prayer until fairly recent history when it was added to the first part by a decision of the Pope.

Personally, I dislike the final few lines due to the emphasis on us being sinners. But I understand the points you've made and I, too, disagree with the RCC adding things here and there for the apparent heck of it. :(
 
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everbecoming2007

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I no longer self-describe as an Anglo-Catholic, although I probably fit the definition as well as any other person who identifies that way. Praying to the saints is not really in accord with the most natural and plain reading of the Articles, but how one thinks about this issue depends how she evaluates the authority of the Articles in the context of the rest of church history and tradition. I think there was perhaps one Anglican divine in the seventeenth century who advocated praying to saints (though I'm not sure if he actually did it himself). I cannot currently find his name however. With perhaps that one exception this was not something Anglicans did since Anglicanism settled into its Protestant identity. The practice was revived among a minority of us later on. The Prayer Book which interprets the Articles contains no prayer to saints except for perhaps one on Ash Wednesday prayer in the 1979 BCP: ...We confess to you and to one another, and to the whole communion of saints in heaven... Since the 1979 prayer book is accepted only by one province and only in recent history it cannot however claim a very high authority for interpreting the Articles or Anglican tradition, and while this prayer includes the saints in heaven it is addressed first of all to the Father, not to any particular saint.

I was first exposed to Catholic theology and devotion in the abstract but liturgically I first experienced more or less high Anglican liturgy. I learned the Rosary from Catholic friends with whom I often prayed, so that was a big part of my devotion. Over time I've become more Anglican I suppose. I'm more likely to pray the 1928 Daily Office, the litanies in the prayer book, or use a chotki or Anglican Rosary as I find visual meditation such as that found in the Rosary distracting. I prefer to focus on the words I'm praying themselves instead of a meditation and then sink into myself and become still. When I say prayers on beads it will often consist of phrases from the prayer book or scripture and I incorporate psalms into many of my devotions. I do still sometimes say an occasional Hail Mary as it is known in Roman Catholicism, and I pray to saints every day, but my attitude to prayer is quite different in feel from most Catholics I've known. It's hard to explain, but it's colored by the BCP which is more sober in tone and not very sentimental. In a way I find the tone of Orthodox prayer books and their long flowing prayers more familiar when I have said them with Orthodox than many Roman devotions except of course that many of the prayers do directly invoke saints unlike the prayer book, yet many are addressed straight to God asking for saints' intercession which is not as problematic from an evangelical Anglican view I'd think.

Also unlike many (but not all) Catholics I am as likely to ask my deceased grandmother or other deceased person who taught me the faith for their prayers or create a shrine for them as I am the Blessed Virgin. This practice is more common among my Orthodox friends.

A small minority in my parish pray to saints or angels, but every priest I've had has actively encouraged me to do so and shared resources with me, even those who were mostly of an evangelical bent. The only priests I've known of who discouraged it were two liberal women priests who I didn't know well and weren't part of my parish, but I'm not sure what their objection was. One of them wouldn't even refer to the Sacrament as Christ's Body (it's Christ's "story") so I didn't take her seriously and all we did was argue about everything anyway. But some priests do object to it based on the traditional formularies and the fact that the practice is not found in scripture.

Since I've become more exposed to the Catholic Church itself, its liturgy, and regular members I'd say that the feel of my prayer life and thinking is very different from all of that even though I still pray to saints. I don't really mind that most Anglicans do not pray to saints, but I do get the sense from Catholics I've known that their sense of the communion of the saints is very palpable and this was true even of those who were poorly informed of their faith. I've gotten the sense from many Protestants that they lack something in this regard, although not quite as much among Episcopalians. I think perhaps it would be good to encourage Anglicans to ask God directly for saints' intercessions to emphasize this mystery of Christian life, but if this is divisive I wouldn't push it myself. E.J. Bicknell was an evangelical Anglican that found this practice acceptable and in accord with the understanding of the primitive church and compatible with the Articles.
 
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ReligiousGirl

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That's great - thanks.

Also unlike many (but not all) Catholics I am as likely to ask my deceased grandmother or other deceased person who taught me the faith for their prayers or create a shrine for them as I am the Blessed Virgin. This practice is more common among my Orthodox friends.

I've not come across that before. I guess why not.
I have a Greek Orthodox friend, I will ask her about this.
 
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Wgw

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That's great - thanks.



I've not come across that before. I guess why not.
I have a Greek Orthodox friend, I will ask her about this.

Asking for the prayers of deceased relatives is an unusual practice among the Orthodox, indeed I would question kts Orthodoxy. Until someone is glorified as a Saint we normally pray for them.
 
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everbecoming2007

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Asking for the prayers of deceased relatives is an unusual practice among the Orthodox, indeed I would question kts Orthodoxy. Until someone is glorified as a Saint we normally pray for them.

Well the Orthodox I've known pray for and to their relatives -- it's not either/or for them. It is also a primitive practice. But it may very well be unusual as you have said. Other than a few friends I do not have much exposure to Eastern Orthodoxy.
 
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Wgw

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Well the Orthodox I've known pray for and to their relatives -- it's not either/or for them. It is also a primitive practice. But it may very well be unusual as you have said. Other than a few friends I do not have much exposure to Eastern Orthodoxy.

One is only supposed to reauest prayers from glorified saints. We don't do ancestor worship. We do pray for the deceased however; this is a standard Orthodox practice.
 
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everbecoming2007

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One is only supposed to reauest prayers from glorified saints. We don't do ancestor worship. We do pray for the deceased however; this is a standard Orthodox practice.

The Orthodox priest told us that it is acceptable to ask deceased relatives for prayers. It's not ancestor worship as I am sure you must realize. I concede that the priest or my Orthodox friends may be a minority on this matter. There is no nearby Orthodox parish -- my experience and knowledge of this matter are limited. Perhaps the church even condemns this although I do not think it does. In any case I am not Orthodox and not overly concerned about this. For one I do not share all the Catholic or Orthodox notions about canonization as if the church can somehow know who went to heaven and then dictate who I may or may not ask intercessions of. In fact I have not known the church to do this -- people begin praying to the deceased and allegedly receiving answered prayers before they can be formally canonized in Catholicism. All saints begin as "folk saints." I will pray to anyone I believe went to heaven or else ask God for their intercessions. I have known Catholics that do this as well, not just Orthodox. In Western Catholic belief even souls in purgatory can pray for us on earth. It is also attested to as a primitive practice of the Church by Bicknell to ask God for deceased relatives' intercessions if they were Christians.
 
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Feuerbach

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I was wondering how many Anglo-Catholics pray the Hail Mary? I have several friends who do, and several who say that this isn't really permitted.

Also, some friends use a Roman Catholic rosary in their prayers and others use an Anglican. What do people here do?

:)

I would consider myself what many call "Prayer Book Catholic" so please read my response accordingly.

I pray with the Dominican (Catholic) rosary as part of my devotions, but would certainly have no expectation that it be a part of the liturgical life of the parish as that ought to be determined by the BCP. I can't speak for others on the 'Catholic' end of the Anglican spectrum definitively, but by and large Anglo-Catholics see Marian devotions (including the Rosary, the Angelus, the old Sarum Prymer, etc.) as part of the inherited traditional piety of the Western Church. Albion has raised the question of the Articles of Religion, specifically Article XXII "Of Purgatory." Many self-described Anglo-Catholics either ignore or outright reject the Articles of Religion. Others read the Articles in the light of John Henry Newman's (in)famous Tract 90. I personally am more in line with the latter though even that I think stretches the Articles' meaning too far. As a communicant in a church that considers the 1928 BCP as its standard, I don't think I could completely ignore the Articles with good faith.
 
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Padres1969

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I was wondering how many Anglo-Catholics pray the Hail Mary? I have several friends who do, and several who say that this isn't really permitted.

Also, some friends use a Roman Catholic rosary in their prayers and others use an Anglican. What do people here do?

:)
I consider myself Anglo-Catholic, but I don't tend to say the Hail Mary. It's something I personally associate much more closely with Roman Catholicism than Anglicanism, even if some Anglo-Catholics due say it. But I have no issue with those in the Anglo-Catholic tradition that do choose to say it as it is part of our shared heritage with the RCC.
 
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everbecoming2007

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I would consider myself what many call "Prayer Book Catholic" so please read my response accordingly.

I pray with the Dominican (Catholic) rosary as part of my devotions, but would certainly have no expectation that it be a part of the liturgical life of the parish as that ought to be determined by the BCP. I can't speak for others on the 'Catholic' end of the Anglican spectrum definitively, but by and large Anglo-Catholics see Marian devotions (including the Rosary, the Angelus, the old Sarum Prymer, etc.) as part of the inherited traditional piety of the Western Church. Albion has raised the question of the Articles of Religion, specifically Article XXII "Of Purgatory." Many self-described Anglo-Catholics either ignore or outright reject the Articles of Religion. Others read the Articles in the light of John Henry Newman's (in)famous Tract 90. I personally am more in line with the latter though even that I think stretches the Articles' meaning too far. As a communicant in a church that considers the 1928 BCP as its standard, I don't think I could completely ignore the Articles with good faith.

So what is your take on the Articles concerning prayers to the saints? Do you still go with Tract 90 even though you think it's a stretch?
 
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Feuerbach

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I think Tract 90 is fairly on track when it comes to the intercession of saints. Newman likes to play up the use of the phrase "Romish Doctrine" to mean the doctrine the Reformers were encountering at the time (rather than the doctrine of Trent, which hadn't happened yet or the doctrine of the Ecumenical Councils, which one wouldn't call Roman or Romish) and I think he has a point there, but I also think we can be even more general and at least acknowledge that seeking the intercession of the saints is among the very oldest of Christian traditions as well as the fact that even those of us who tolerate or even affirm the practice would readily admit that the practices surrounding the cult of saints that Luther, Zwingli, etc. were reacting against were intolerable and abusive.
 
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Destiny2015

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In addition, it's clearly to be praying TO Mary, petitioning her. And also, it was not part of the prayer until fairly recent history when it was added to the first part by a decision of the Pope.

I've talked to several RC's who insist it's the opposite. So who's correct?
 
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Albion

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I've talked to several RC's who insist it's the opposite. So who's correct?
What's the opposite? That the Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary, a petition addressed to her? They are completely mistaken if they've denied that.

But I suspect that they may be trying to say that they are asking Mary to intercede with the Father on their behalf and that this, in their view, is not literally to pray to HER. However, the words of the prayer refute that notion. ("Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.")
 
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everbecoming2007

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I've talked to several RC's who insist it's the opposite. So who's correct?

They may equate prayer with worship when actually it means to ask or to plead, though prayer may involve worship. There is also in some quarters of Catholicism a tendency to claim, "We pray with the saints, not to the saints," but this is inaccurate if intended to deny that prayers are addressed directly to saints in Roman Catholicism. It is also inaccurate to deny that saints are worshiped in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy, some brands of Anglo-Catholicism, and so on). As Newman explained it, the theology behind this is that the saints participate by grace in the worship that is due to God alone by nature. This practice is related to the doctrine of theosis, the process whereby we become divine by grace. ("God became man that men might become gods," -- St. Augustine.) This latter doctrine, that of the veneration of saints, which is worship distinct from that owed to God alone, is sometimes downplayed or denied possibly as a result of Protestant influences in Catholicism. It may also be that the fact is missed on some people that veneration is a form of worship or that the word "worship" in some contexts can refer merely to a high honor paid to someone. The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary, by St. Bonaventure addresses the Blessed Virgin the way one would a goddess, Psalm 4 specifically exhorting the nations to "glorify her" and "extol her magnificence." Psalm 22 in this specific psalter is particularly worshipful:

The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof: but thou, O most holy
Mother, reignest with Him forever.

Thou art clothed with glory and beauty: every precious stone is thy
covering and thy clothing.

The brightness of the sun is upon thy head: the beauty of the moon is
beneath thy feet.

Shining orbs adorn thy throne: the morning stars glorify thee forever.

Be mindful of us, O Lady, in thy good pleasure: and make us worthy to
glorify thy name.
 
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