Anglo-Catholicism

[tourist]

Hello everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone out there would consider themselves to be, or know anyone who is Anglo-Catholic?

What do you think this term means? How do you respond to this movement?

I'd be grateful to read anyone's insights, opinions or experiences.

Looking forward to responses,

Tourist

 

[RobNJ]

It's usually how some of us Anglican/Episcopalian types describe ourselves.
here's a link to a good run-down:
http://www.gracechurchinnewark.org/whatisanglocatholic.html

Basically..... I worship in an Episcopal parish believing in the real presence in the Eucharist, crossing myself during the liturgy, & while praying, I go to a church with a font, to bless yoursef with, on entering and a kneeler and votives in front of a wood carving of Mary...just for starters.

 

[Adammi]

Hello everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone out there would consider themselves to be, or know anyone who is Anglo-Catholic?

What do you think this term means? How do you respond to this movement?

I'd be grateful to read anyone's insights, opinions or experiences.

Looking forward to responses,

Tourist

I can't really answer your question, but I would like to welcome you to OBOB. I hope to see your posts around often. You will find that there are a lot of really awesome people here.

~Adam

 

[geocajun]

It's usually how some of us Anglican/Episcopalian types describe ourselves.
here's a link to a good run-down:
http://www.gracechurchinnewark.org/whatisanglocatholic.html

Basically..... I worship in an Episcopal parish believing in the real presence in the Eucharist, crossing myself during the liturgy, & while praying, I go to a church with a font, to bless yoursef with, on entering and a kneeler and votives in front of a wood carving of Mary...just for starters.

Do "anglo-catholics" follow any Catholic moral teachings? (as given by the Catholic Church, in obedience to, and communion with the Holy Father of course).

Also, for clarity, lets keep in mind that anglo-catholics are protestants, not catholic.

 

[Adammi]

The below is a quote from the above posted website (http://www.gracechurchinnewark.org/...locatholic.html)

That the Church of England was not denomination, founded at the Reformation, but the selfsame branch of the Catholic Church planted by missionaries from Rome and Ireland in the sixth century.

That is crazy, they actually think that they are Catholic? Well are they actually Catholic? Are they in union with Rome?

~Adam

 

[geocajun]

That is crazy, they actually think that they are Catholic? Well are they actually Catholic? Are they in union with Rome?

~Adam

Why don't we ask St. Thomas More?
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=324

 

[murron]

against my better judgement, I'm going to wade into this conversation...

I realize that there are some RC's who do not recognize the validity of any catholic faith other than the RC ...while at the same time they recognize the EO as catholic, despite the EO not recognizing the authority of the Pope over them (EO).

The Chuch of England was indeed the Roman Catholic church in (surprise) England. Just as the Church of Scotland was also the Roman Catholic church in Scotland. Newadvent.com carries a more clear explanation of this (although that site also leaves off a LOT of relevant information); but to sum it up, the CofE was indeed entirely, wholly 100% Roman Catholic, under the Pope. It wasn't until Henry VIII wanted a male heir that there was a split. For political reasons (protection of his throne), not theological reasons, Henry VIII broke with Rome in the hopes of finding a wife that would provide him a male heir to the throne (remember, 500+ years ago they didn't know it was the male who determined gender of offspring).

It is interesting to note that more than 300 years passed between that split and the time a Pope declared Anglican orders invalid - I wonder how that was retroactivated on priests and bishops long since dead...but that's a question for a different thread.

Today you have many different kinds of anglicans, some in communion with canterbury and others having formed their own communions rather than abide the changes that took place over some serious doctrinal issues.

I personally belong to a continuing anglican communion, called the TAC (traditional anglican communion). Having come to this parish from an RC parish I can assure you there is almost no difference between the RC Mass and a TAC Mass. It is also interesting to note that our communion has been in talks with Rome to establish reciprocating orders. I sincerely would love to see this occur! It would be nice to have that if for no reason other than to no longer have to defend my own catholicness to fellow catholics when we should be glorying in our commonality.

Am I catholic? Yes. Am I Roman Catholic? No.

 

[TexasCatholic]

I would assume that they think they are Catholic, because they don't believe that the original split of the Church of England from Rome actually split the Universality of the Universal (Catholic) Church.

-Michael

 

[Markh]

"Anglo Catholics" are not, in any way "Catholic"

they are protestants!

There are 40 English marters who were willing to put their heads on the block against this so called "Anglo-Catholicism"

it certainly is not Catholicism.

My school is called The John Fisher school, John Fisher was one of the men who saw that Anglicanism was absolutely not Catholicism and protestantism and because of this- he was murdered, by the Anglican Church.

Famously John Henry Newman realised that Ango-Catholicism was indeed invalid in apostolic succession and therefore, he left and converted to Catholicism- once he converted the floodgates opened and loads of clergy left for Catholicism- realising that they indeed did not have apostolic succession.

in 1896, Pope Leo 13th, declared in a Papal Bull that all "Anglican Orders" were invalid.

part of the reason for this is the change in the text in ordinating a man, also, the intent is

also- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ie127.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/27/ixhome.html

have a look at that website, shows how weak Anglicanism is with regards to "holy communion"- there isn't even a full priestly order anymore.

let us remember, regardless what Anglo-Catholics tell us, they are actually part of 1 anglican church- by the fruits of the Anglican Church and comparing it to the Catholic Church we can see clearly that there is no apostolic succession as it is in a very very un "Catholic" situation

 

[murron]

"Anglo Catholics" are not, in any way "Catholic"

they are protestants!

There are 40 English marters who were willing to put their heads on the block against this so called "Anglo-Catholicism"

it certainly is not Catholicism.

My school is called The John Fisher school, John Fisher was one of the men who saw that Anglicanism was absolutely not Catholicism and protestantism and because of this- he was murdered, by the Anglican Church.

Famously John Henry Newman realised that Ango-Catholicism was indeed invalid in apostolic succession and therefore, he left and converted to Catholicism- once he converted the floodgates opened and loads of clergy left for Catholicism- realising that they indeed did not have apostolic succession.

in 1896, Pope Leo 13th, declared in a Papal Bull that all "Anglican Orders" were invalid.

part of the reason for this is the change in the text in ordinating a man, also, the intent is

also- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/27/nprie127.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/27/ixhome.html

have a look at that website, shows how weak Anglicanism is with regards to "holy communion"- there isn't even a full priestly order anymore.

let us remember, regardless what Anglo-Catholics tell us, they are actually part of 1 anglican church- by the fruits of the Anglican Church and comparing it to the Catholic Church we can see clearly that there is no apostolic succession as it is in a very very un "Catholic" situation

I would just like to ask that such broad generalizations be avoided. Yes, there are protestant anglican churches - but that in no way means they are all protestant. There are several different Anglo-catholic communions. While statements such as these may be applicable to some of those communions, they are not applicable to all of the anglican communions.

 

[Lifesaver]

I realize that there are some RC's who do not recognize the validity of any catholic faith other than the RC ...while at the same time they recognize the EO as catholic, despite the EO not recognizing the authority of the Pope over them (EO).

No Catholic recognizes the validity of the EO faith, murron.
What is recognized is the validity of their Sacraments. But it is still completely illicit to take part on them, or to share the errors of the EO churches.

Look, this has nothing to do with "being mean" as so many make it sound.
It is just a matter of honesty. We disagree in very fundamental issues.

I would love to see the end of the Anglican Schism, all the more because England is so dear to me. But that can only happen if they renounce their errors.
Are you averse to even considering that?
For more than 1000 years the Church of England was in communion with Rome. English culture is completely rooted in Catholicism.
Do you really think it is okay to break up? To start believing in different things?

And nowadays the Anglican communion is in chaos. There are groups which are not distinguishable from evangelical protestantism. Others are more traditional, and that is generally a good thing, but they are not traditional to the ultimate extent; they partake of the very unorthodox and untraditional errors which gave origin to the English schism, and because of which all manners of heresy ensued.

Eminent Anglican figures in the past, investigating the history of their own church, converted to Catholicism (the only kind, as the Church is one) and became obedient to the Pope.
Why do others persist in their errors?

 

[Markh]

I would just like to ask that such broad generalizations be avoided. Yes, there are protestant anglican churches - but that in no way means they are all protestant. There are several different Anglo-catholic communions. While statements such as these may be applicable to some of those communions, they are not applicable to all of the anglican communions.

No, that simply isn't true, the Pope has said a countless number of times- that all Anglican orders are invallid.

That is it, end of story.

Null and void.

St John Fisher, St Thomas More and co were willing to die for what might seem to you like a non-issue, but I am afraid it is, it is a massive deal. There is no comprimise with teh truth and the sad fact is- Anglicanism was set up as a comprimise! Between the puritans and the Catholics to try and keep them both happy in a state religion.

Catholicism was illegal in Britain under the "Anglo-Catholics" and priests were in hiding and murdered if found.

Anglicanism is absolutely protestant from the eyes of the Church-

if you say anything other than that in teh OBOB forum you will be DEBATING.

Which I believe is against the rules.

 

[Paul S]

What makes a particular sect Catholic or not is being in communion with the Pope. Any group which is rejects the pope's authority is in schism, even if they believe the same things. Any group which rejects the teachings of the Catholic Church on faith and morals is heretical.

This is separate, however, from the validity of the sacraments. The Society of St. Pius X, which rejects the reforms of Vatican II and thus the authority of the Pope, is in schism. However, because the sacraments work ex opere operato (by the work having been worked), and they have kept the same Catholic rituals and intend to do the same things the Church does, their Sacraments are valid, but illicit, since they are done without the Church's permission. The Orthodox are in a similar position, since their sacraments and liturgy are done with the same intent as the Church, keeping them valid, but illicit due to their schism. With the Anglicans, one of the first things Cranmer did was revise the Catholic rituals, especially ordination, since he denied the Sacrifice of the Mass and the power given to priests to offer sacrifice. Once the once-Catholic bishops had all died, no priests could be ordained, since the ones ordained under the new ritual were not valid priests.

Some Anglican orders may be valid, since the ritual has since been revised and bishops, mainly Orthodox or Old Catholic, have been found to perform the ordinations. If they are, then their sacraments are valid but illicit.

As Lifesaver said, I too would love to see England come back to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but to do so, they'd have to again recognise the Pope as the head of the Church and submit to all the Catholic teachings. Recognising the Pope is the key to being Catholic - ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia - even if one otherwise agrees with Catholic doctrine, and even if a particular group has valid sacraments.

 

[BornCath]

Am I catholic? Yes. Am I Roman Catholic? No.

Are you or your church in communion with Rome? Since either is not, then you are not a Catholic. The term Catholic and Roman Catholic when used by Catholics mean one & the same thing just as a Britisher and an Englishman mean the same. Anglo-Catholics imitate many of the Catholic Church's external practices. This imitation of Catholic worship does not make them Catholics. Say if some stranger were my double in appearance, that would not make him my blood brother. The only way to be a Catholic is to be one. We went from God by disobedience, and the one way back is by obedience. Obedience is the very essence of religion, and it is the obedience to the Catholic Church (of which the Pope is the head) in belief and practice which makes a man a Catholic. Your protestant forefathers left the Catholic Church that Jesus founded and created the Church of England that splintered into many difference denominations. One cannot leave the Catholic Church and remains in it. In the past, protestants rejoiced and insisted on being called protestants. It is for us Catholics to ask why they now want to be called Catholics.

 

[TomUK]

I have no wish to debate in a forum where i'm not allowed to debate (though feel free to come over to STR with any questions) but to be Anglican, be it anglo-catholic or any other variations on the scale, is certainly not protestant.

Also i don't wish to refer to any specific posts but may i ask people to be respectful of the the Anglican church, in the same way that we at STR extend the same courtesy to you.

 

[Markh]

Ibut to be Anglican, be it anglo-catholic or any other variations on the scale, is certainly not protestant.

But it is.

And I'm afraid if you take a look at some of teh practices in the Anglican Church in many ways, there are fundamentalist Churches which are less protestant in some ways than Anglicanism.

also, the Church of England actually calls itself protestant in one of its services!

In the Queen's coronation and in the coronation service of all monarchs the Archbishop asks the Queen:

Archbishop: Will you to the utmost of your power maintain the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel?

Will you to the utmost of your power maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant Reformed Religion established by law?

Will you maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England?

And will you preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of England, and to the Churches there committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges, as by law do or shall appertain to them or any of them?

Queen: All this I promise to do.

Therfore the Anglicans even call themselves protestant.

If you don't consider yourself a protestant, TomUK, it seems you are a protestant of a protestant faith.

St John Fisher and St Thomas More thought the Church Of England protestant enough to accept death rather than serve as a part of it.

 

[BornCath]

I have no wish to debate in a forum where i'm not allowed to debate (though feel free to come over to STR with any questions) but to be Anglican, be it anglo-catholic or any other variations on the scale, is certainly not protestant.

Also i don't wish to refer to any specific posts but may i ask people to be respectful of the the Anglican church, in the same way that we at STR extend the same courtesy to you.

If the official or legal name of the Anglican Church or Church of England is "The Protestant Church of England As By Law Established" why would you say it is not protestant?

I'm not trying to debate or pick a fight either. I'm just trying to state facts. Some of my friends are Anglicans, Baptist, Pentecostal, non-denomination, and other protestants but when we talk about religion we do it in good spirit and when we parted ways we end up laughing not in ridicule but fun that we are able to discuss religion without bickering.

 

[geocajun]

I find the whole line of reasoning that the anglican church is catholic to be laughable at best - absurd to be sure.
If they were catholic, then there was no need to split. look no further than the history of the your church to see what it is you protest, and there you will find your protestantism.
if you want to be catholics, you need only contact a catholic priest, and ask to begin the process of reconciliation/initation.

 

[TomUK]

If they were catholic, then there was no need to split

why?!

 

[Adammi]

The Chuch of England was indeed the Roman Catholic church in (surprise) England. Just as the Church of Scotland was also the Roman Catholic church in Scotland.
.

Umm, you don't live in England, you live in America, and the Roman Catholic Church in America is (surprise) the Roman Catholic Church. And if you see yourself as Catholic then why don't you go to a Catholic Parish?

~Adam