Anglicans/Old-Catholics -What is the relationship between Birth Control and Abortion?

[Fish and Bread]

Many women seek abortions for very complicated reasons, and I think unless we walk in their shoes, it isn't for us to judge.

It's not for us to judge the women involved and what effect it may have on their relationship with God (Other than to say that it probably isn't good!), but it is for us to judge the behavior in so far as recognizing it against God's law and something to be avoided. When Jesus said "Judge not, lest not you be judged", he was talked about not assuming folks were bad people or unsaved because of their actions, he wasn't saying "Everything is okay, so don't ever call something a sin". At least, that's my take on it. I'm actually thinking we're on the same wave-length here, I just enjoy pontificating.

John

 

[higgs2]

Actually, I'm for birth control, I'm just trying to understand the folks who are against by getting inside of their heads, more or less. It's scary in here, let me out! Actually, I begin to see where they're coming from. I don't agree, mind you, I just understand them better, which is very helpful to me in striving to love more folks more fully (Since we're talking about birth control, I should probably clarify that I mean love in the Christian sense, i.e. "Love one another as I have loved you", though I suppose birth control would be helpful with the other. ).

John

It seemed unusual for you to make statements like this:

"People say "Here, try the pill" and then all of the sudden people have sex they otherwise might not while thinking they won't get pregnant, then they get pregnant, don't know what to do, come running to their clinician, and then their clinician says "Here, try an abortion.".

It's pretty insulting to women and to health care professionals. It also implies that if people don't have access to birth control they won't have sex because they'll be afraid they will get pregnant. Hmmmmm.

 

[Fish and Bread]

It seemed unusual for you to make statements like this:

"People say "Here, try the pill" and then all of the sudden people have sex they otherwise might not while thinking they won't get pregnant, then they get pregnant, don't know what to do, come running to their clinician, and then their clinician says "Here, try an abortion.".

It's pretty insulting to women and to health care professionals.

It was intended as an exageration and a simplification that would illustrate a possible connection that some claim may exist between the two practices. Jesus exagerated all the time to make points.

It also implies that if people don't have access to birth control they won't have sex because they'll be afraid they will get pregnant.

I think that's at least a possibility we should consider. Before the pill became widely available and abortion was widely available, there were a lot fewer incidences of out of wedlock births, especially if we factor in abortions and talk about total pregnancies. So, since we've begun ultilizing tools that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, we've had more. It could be that in providing a false sense of security, we've enabled a "free love" movement which ultimatley has had the opposite effect of the intent of reducing unwanted pregnancies. I wonder why anyone would find it offensive to at least *discuss* the possibility. We argue about the efficency of holy things like the sacraments in conveying grace, surely we can discuss the efficency of birth control.

John

 

[karen freeinchristman]

It was intended as an exageration and a simplification that would illustrate a possible connection that some claim may exist between the two practices. Jesus exagerated all the time to make points.

Oh, I see, you're trying to become more like Jesus by the exageration method!
(joke)...

It could be that in providing a false sense of security, we've enabled a "free love" movement which ultimatley has had the opposite effect of the intent of reducing unwanted pregnancies.

I think there is a connection here. The advent of widely available cheap contraceptives combined with the drug-hazed climate of the 60's 'free love' has proved a disaster, IMO. What is 'the moral of the story'??? I do think we are beginning to experience signs of a wake-up call, in terms of people starting to realise that promiscuity is certainly not the wonderful thing that we should all be aiming for (according to the media). I think the cycle is turning back towards more modesty and self-control in the secular world. It's slow, but there are signs. But then again, I live in hope.

 

[higgs2]

It was intended as an exageration and a simplification that would illustrate a possible connection that some claim may exist between the two practices. Jesus exagerated all the time to make points.



I think that's at least a possibility we should consider. Before the pill became widely available and abortion was widely available, there were a lot fewer incidences of out of wedlock births, especially if we factor in abortions and talk about total pregnancies. So, since we've begun ultilizing tools that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, we've had more. It could be that in providing a false sense of security, we've enabled a "free love" movement which ultimatley has had the opposite effect of the intent of reducing unwanted pregnancies. I wonder why anyone would find it offensive to at least *discuss* the possibility. We argue about the efficency of holy things like the sacraments in conveying grace, surely we can discuss the efficency of birth control.

John

Hmm. I'd have to see some stats, but I thought most teenage pregnancies at least are the result of *not* using any birth control, as opposed to failed birth control.

I also wonder what the channge in unwanted pregancies has been. Maybe we've had more, but we've had more total pregnancies overall, too. And how do you measure "unwanted" pregnancies? You say there have been more out of wedlock births, and I imagine that's probably true, even the rate of out of wedlock births might have increased (any numbers?) but you have not proved causation. I am not convinced that birth control is the cause.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Hmm. I'd have to see some stats, but I thought most teenage pregnancies at least are the result of *not* using any birth control, as opposed to failed birth control.

I also wonder what the channge in unwanted pregancies has been. Maybe we've had more, but we've had more total pregnancies overall, too. And how do you measure "unwanted" pregnancies? You say there have been more out of wedlock births, and I imagine that's probably true, even the rate of out of wedlock births might have increased (any numbers?) but you have not proved causation. I am not convinced that birth control is the cause.

A quick websearch yields this:

http://www.brook.edu/comm/policybriefs/pb05.htm

Anyhow, though not *all* out of wedlock pregnancies are unwanted pregnancies, I think, based on the folks I've talked to, only a very small percentage of them are planned or expected. It's just common sense -- there aren't too many people out there who desperately want to raise a child alone (I wouldn't want to, ideally, if I had the option of waiting until I got married), though, granted, the number of folks like that are growing.

John

 

[higgs2]

A quick websearch yields this:

http://www.brook.edu/comm/policybriefs/pb05.htm

Anyhow, though not *all* out of wedlock pregnancies are unwanted pregnancies, I think, based on the folks I've talked to, only a very small percentage of them are planned or expected. It's just common sense -- there aren't too many people out there who desperately want to raise a child alone (I wouldn't want to, ideally, if I had the option of waiting until I got married), though, granted, the number of folks like that are growing.

John

Makes sense, the fewer "shotgun" marriages, the more out of wedlock births.