Anglican Division

[Labayu]

Her views

I'm a him not a her

though I think that in America there is probably a larger majority of liberal churches, than what you allude to

Because 1) I'm English, 2) I'm talking about the Church of England


I'd say there are more liberal churches than conservative ones, but they tend to be smaller/less wealthy. Like Karl said about HTB...

...lots of older people go to CoE churches out of tradition and don't particulally belive in God. Also you get people who do belive quite conservativly with clergy who won't admit that they don't really belive (or have serious doubts) about the reserection, or Jesus even existing untill the members become lay staff (who then feel betrayed or like in a secret club)...

...unfortunatlly the CoE vicar factories often attract people who think that become a pastor will sort out their nagging doubts. They then "loose the faith" (some even becoming athestic) but refuse to leave their (often poorly paid) postion, because otherwise they'll have to do something else (and they often arn't qualifed to do anything else), not to mention the free houses!

And before anyone accuses me of going ott I am verywell aware of this going on in a huge scale in a certain diocees in particular- so it's pretty likely to be going on elsewhere.

 

[steviedee]

I am from the Continuing Church. We use the 28 BCP and do not permit the "ordination" of women. We are thankful NOT to be under the authority of the Archdruid of Canterbury. As far as ECUSA is concerned, it is dead.....believers need to get out and into a new province.

 

[pmcleanj]

We are thankful NOT to be under the authority of the (Archbishop) of Canterbury.

None of us outside of the See of Canterbury are under the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

What we do give to the Archbishop (as to all Archbishops) is our respect, and we recognize +Rowan Williams as the senior prelate within the Anglican Communion. Respect is a good thing, even respect for people with whom you disagree.

So please forego using pejorative nicknames.

I see a great deal of life in ECUSA, especially from the wise and pious ECUSA members I meet here. I do not think we can sweepingly condemn the entire province to the grave. Far better that we should put our effort into encouraging their life. The church is not a zero-sum game where one branch can "win" only at the expense of another. But celebrate your joy in the communion you have found, and the rest of us will rejoice for you from within our own vibrant communities to which we are called.

 

[steviedee]

I understand your "good will" and ecumenism; however, right is right: he IS the ARCHDRUID of Canterbury---or do you forget that little ceremony he underwent before he was enthroned @Canterbury? He IS a druid....so 'pejorative name'would be incorrect.
Lesson 1 for liberals is that words mean things, and if "Archdruid" is not a nice word, "Archdruid" is not a nice thing to be for someone claiming to be a "Christian."
I'm sorry you reject my feelings on ECUSA. ECUSA is a hotbed of heresy, and believers need to get OUT. Sorry. I still believe Doctrine and Theology are major issues for Christians, even in this postmodern age.
Pardon my misuse of "authority." I was Roman Catholic for years and years and still use Roman terminology.
e

 

[pmcleanj]

I understand your "good will" and ecumenism; however, right is right: he IS the ARCHDRUID of Canterbury---or do you forget that little ceremony he underwent before he was enthroned @Canterbury? He IS a druid....so 'pejorative name'would be incorrect.
Lesson 1 for liberals is that words mean things, and if "Archdruid" is not a nice word, "Archdruid" is not a nice thing to be for someone claiming to be a "Christian."

Dr. Williams is a druid in the Gorsedd of the Bards -- a Welsh cultural society for the furthering of the arts in Wales. Canterbury is not in Wales, nor is the See of Canterbury related to the Gorsedd of the Bards, nor is Dr. Williams an "Archdruid". He is an Archbishop, and a poet, and your attempts to treat him as something else are offensive. To denigrate an Archbishop denigrates his See. Your statements regarding ECUSA denigrate that province. As such, they violate the rules of this forum.

Your post has been reported.

 

[PaladinValer]

stevie, did you even read the rules of this particular Anglican forum? Or the rules of CF en generale?

And furthermore:

1. The ABC is the first-among-equals in the AC. He has no direct juristinction in any other province in the AC besides his own. His voice caries a lot of weight, though, and I am honored...no...privileged for such a man of grace, integrity, and wisdom to be my first-among-equals.
2. Archbishop Rowan Williams isn't a Celtic Neopagan, so "archdruid" is a misleading and false title. If you want to meet a real current or former Neopagan archdruid, I suggest you contact Isaac Bonewits or Philip Garr-Gomm.
3. While it is true that bards were among the ancient clergy case of Celtic religion, today the title is merely one of secular vocation of music and poetry, nothing more. If this society wishes to use the word "druid" in this context, it is more than welcome to, as it is obvious it has no religious conotations at all. In short, they aren't real Celtic Neopagans; they simply love Celtic music and poetry.
4. Do you even know what "heresy" is? Nothing done recently in my ECUSA or its Canadian counterpart has ever been declared a heresy during the entire history of the Christian Church, period. You may disagree with it, and many folks in both those provinces do. But to call it "heresy" is not just out-of-bounds but a childish flame.
5. I too am reporting your abusive posts. I highly suggest you read the CF's official rules as well as the set of rules for this particular Anglican forum.

 

[thejesusfish90]

steviedeeI understand your "good will" and ecumenism; however, right is right: he IS the ARCHDRUID of Canterbury---or do you forget that little ceremony he underwent before he was enthroned @Canterbury? He IS a druid....so 'pejorative name'would be incorrect.
Lesson 1 for liberals is that words mean things, and if "Archdruid" is not a nice word, "Archdruid" is not a nice thing to be for someone claiming to be a "Christian."
I'm sorry you reject my feelings on ECUSA. ECUSA is a hotbed of heresy, and believers need to get OUT. Sorry. I still believe Doctrine and Theology are major issues for Christians, even in this postmodern age.
Pardon my misuse of "authority." I was Roman Catholic for years and years and still use Roman terminology.
e

Mate, if you want to voice an objection, or even critisicm of the Anglican Church as it is, then this is definately not how you do it...I dont support the actions of the liberal side of the church, but i still too have alot of respect for Archbishop Rowan Williams, it is no easy task to try and hold unity between one group who is pulling in one direction, and another group who is pulling in the other direction...If you object to the actions of the ABC, or the ECUSCA (as indeed is your right), then I ask if you could please do so in a way, which respects those around you, whilst still puts forward your objection...

Your Brother In Christ

Chris

 

[NewToLife]

As an ex-Anglican myself I feel a deep sympathy for those involved in this dispute within Anglicanism. It was beginning to reach a crisis point by the time of my conversion to Orthodoxy, though I did not leave Anglicanism over this matter but rather because of a conviction that Orthodoxy was correct.

Polycarp mentioned 'fractured communion' and the Orthodox experience of it, to be honest I do not believe that such an arrangement is a realistic solution to anglicanism's differences at this time. This is simply because there is a considerable gulf of belief between ( and even within ) the 3 wings of anglicanism, such a gulf does not really exist even between say the Eastern and Oriental orthodox which are not in communion but remain in schism even now ( though with God's will not for much longer ).

As an ex Anglican I would expect that Anglicanism will basically hold together with those who are unable to live with whatever compromise is reached probably converting to other denominations. Of course it is possible that Anglicanism might end up in schism with an African led conservative branch taking the majority of communicants worldwide.

 

[artybloke]

I understand your "good will" and ecumenism; however, right is right: he IS the ARCHDRUID of Canterbury---or do you forget that little ceremony he underwent before he was enthroned @Canterbury? He IS a druid....so 'pejorative name'would be incorrect.
Lesson 1 for liberals is that words mean things, and if "Archdruid" is not a nice word, "Archdruid" is not a nice thing to be for someone claiming to be a "Christian."
I'm sorry you reject my feelings on ECUSA. ECUSA is a hotbed of heresy, and believers need to get OUT. Sorry. I still believe Doctrine and Theology are major issues for Christians, even in this postmodern age.
Pardon my misuse of "authority." I was Roman Catholic for years and years and still use Roman terminology.
e

How is being a member of the Gorsedd of Bards, a Welsh society dedicated to the preservation and advancement of Welsh language, culture, poetry and music, being some kind of "Arch Druid?" Do you actually understand the idea of the Gorsedd of Bards, or did you just pick on this because it confirmed your prejudices, without checking with the Gorsedd themselves?

 

[Polycarp1]

I have an on-line friend (not a member here but in another forum) from Memphis who is a very conservative Episcopalian. Like me, he is torn by the problems which the church is facing, and he is facing a great problem in deciding how to deal with the conflict between his Bible-based moral sense and his sense of responsibility toward all Christians, gay people included. We've had extensive discussions about the future of the Church, and not always agreed, but respect each other and post as such.

I have a great desire to exchange perspectives with people who do not always agree with me -- but who will not dismiss my POV as "condoning sin" or "heresy." With them, a degree of communication and mutual respect has been established.

I approve of Rowan Williams and his ministry, have no problem with him having joined the Gorsedd as what it is (which has been explained above), and my objection to the snottiness of "Archdruid of Canterbury" is that he was named Archbishop of the Mother Church of our Communion, and deserves our respect in that capacity. AFAIK, there is no such position as "Archdruid of Canterbury," and someone who uses that is clearly intending to defame him by it.

 

[steviedee]

This two-part question is more for the "conservative" Anglicans:

(1) If the new pastor of your parish was a woman, would you stay in your parish or move to another one, and why?

(2) If the new pastor of your parish was a practicing homosexual, would you stay in your parish or move to another one, and why?

1. I would move to another one before you could say, "Oy gevalt." I have already on numerous occasions refused to accept "Communion" from a woman "priest." Why? Scripture nowhere supports the concept of women's "ordination," and neither does 2000 years of Church tradition. The Orthodox and Romans disallow it.
2. I'd move to another parish. I don't think this is appropriate for a Priest to parade it in the parish. I would not doubt the validity of his Orders, though. You did not state if the person was female. If so, she's not a Priest to begin with.

 

[julian the apostate]

a friend of mine (an anglican priest ) wrote this:

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE
There is a difference between the Episcopal Church and other denominations.
The main difference is, denominations look at different things the same way. The Episcopal Church looks at the same things in a different way. It means we must give meaning to what we do. There is a story coming out of the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas where Jesus sees a person working the Sabbath. He says, "Blessed are you if who know what you are doing, but woe to you if you do not."

It is a matter of history. There was Henry the VIII, who did not start the Episcopal Church (Anglican Communion), but he reformed the Church. What happened on the Continent was not a "Reformation" it was a "Revolution." The Lutheran Church, Presbyterian, etc., started at that time. In England the Church maintained Apostolic Succession with Jesus. Henry reformed the Church, but did not break from it. His successor Mary attempted to bring the Church back to Rome. She slaughtered those who worked with Henry"s reformation. Shortly Mary died and was succeeded by Elizabeth. She appointed Richard Hooker, as her theologian for the Church. Hooker was faced with the challenge that if he had a theology which favored either the Protestants or Catholics, heads would literally fall. Rather than present a theology, he presented a way of thinking about theology. It was based on the Bible, Reason and Tradition, called the "three legged stool," or "via Media."

Because of Hookers brilliance the Episcopal Church is not a denomination which has a theology. It is a Church which thinks theologically. The Creeds set our limits of how much and how little one can believe. The middle is left up to the believer.
There are people in the Church who go beyond the limits of the Creed, but the recently revised Creed says "We believe." This means, believe what you will, but this is what the Church believes. The rest is up to you. What is our position and the new Prayer Book, the ordination of women, the issues of human sexuality, and ordination? The answer is, what is your position? From the time of Hooker to our time today there were and are people whose belief is more in the Catholic tradition and others who are more Protestant, There are those who are more fundamentalist and conservative, while others are less fundamental and more liberal. The denominationalist will ask, "Who is right?" The Episcopal Church will answer, "What is your Theology?" The is the core of the Episcopal Church. It is the freedom from denominationalism which looks at different things in the same way. It is the freedom of Jesus Christ to look at the same things in a different way. There is a difference.

 

[PaladinValer]

Julian, that was excellent!

 

[CRitabe]

I am a confirmed member of the Episcopal Church and come from a Social Science educational perspective. I would like to share my thoughts regarding a lot of the current communication regarding our present cultural changes, particularly the use of words like: "conservatives", "neo-conservatives" and "liberals". When we "label" people and place them in one camp or another, we automatically set up a framework for division. It is akin to two soccer teams or football teams meeting for a match. The expected outcome is that one team will win and the other will lose and who the heck wants to LOSE, God forbid; no one likes a LOSER. One will be labeled a "good" team and the other a "bad" team. It is my humble opinion that the first thing that needs to take place in our fellowship of believers is that we stop labeling and dividing.

One of the primary reasons that I joined the Episcopal Church was because of the acceptance of everyone's right and ability to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12), relying on Holy Scripture as the ultimate authority. It appears to me that the current issue is that there are two very different and conflicting interpretations of Holy Scripture with each side believing that their perspective is correct; however, you know, I think that Jesus was the only one given the ultimate authority to judge whether someone is guilty of "sin". It is not my job to label someone who does not agree with my take on things: "right", "wrong", "good", "bad", "Conservative", or "Liberal". Who are we to judge? I believe that I will be judged based on my life choices and everyone else will face the same judgment. God doesn't really need our help in telling him who is right or wrong.

When I read some of the threads posted, it makes me cringe when I hear the words "CONSERVATIVES" or "LIBERALS" thrown out there, depending on which team you are on, because maybe it is just me, but what I hear is your belief is "wrong", "narrow-minded", "non-inclusive", "bad", "standing in the way of progress", "sinful", ad infinitum. It certainly is not edifying to the Body of Christ.

I'm sure that changing our way of speaking will not make the issues go away; however, I believe that it will at least build some bridges rather than walls.

Dear Lord, I ask that you help us all come to a place of healing with the current lack of unity in our Church. It is hurtful to see our brothers and sisters in pain, conflict and fear. Please help us to remember that you died for us all because you love us all. You have asked us how we can love You, whom we have not seen, if we cannot love our brothers and sisters that we can see. Help us truly see one another, hear one another and bear one anothers' burdens. Help us find the unity that you have provided us in the cross. Amen

 

[Bingley]

1. I have already on numerous occasions refused to accept "Communion" from a woman "priest."

Why? Bear with me, I think I understand your theological position. But are women priests so common in your Continuum (I think that's what you called it elsewhere) that the situation has arisen 'on numerous occasions' (in which case, my commiserations)? Or do you seek out women priests to refuse communion from?

 

[steviedee]

Why? Bear with me, I think I understand your theological position. But are women priests so common in your Continuum (I think that's what you called it elsewhere) that the situation has arisen 'on numerous occasions' (in which case, my commiserations)? Or do you seek out women priests to refuse communion from?

Greetings.
No, we do not allow the "ordination" of women. That was one of the reasons the Continuing groups left the Episcopal Church after the General Convention of 1976, which permitted such an un-catholic thing.
The situation has arisen on a few occasions where I was present where women "priests" were distributing Communion. I tried to switch Communion lines(as did others), and just did not receive from the priestess. I'll get up from the rail if they're coming my way.
Never, never, never! I would never seek out such a thing. I would walk out of the church if I saw a woman celebrant. I don't go to church to be aggravated.