angels sinning

[85_2_2011]

The Bible states that 1/3 of angels are fallen. To me, that is a large number. Why so many? What made them want to leave God's dwelling place? Why would God create beings that would rebel against him?

 

[Pal Handy]

The Bible states that 1/3 of angels are fallen. To me, that is a large number. Why so many? What made them want to leave God's dwelling place? Why would God create beings that would rebel against him?

Good news...there are 2 mighty angels for every demon....
God is mighty and His heavenly host is more than enough
to kick the devils army to the curb and God doesn't even
have to roll up His sleeves.

Our God rocks and the kingdom of the earth has become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ for He shall reign forever and ever....

 

[ChristianT]

pal.

also, demons are those who like Lucifer, thought they deserve to be as great as G-d is. So they rebelled against him (if by rebelling, you mean being thrown out of heaven!) He made them perfect, but their own desires offered the demise of their perfection. (translation: G-d made angels sinless, their own desires caused them to sin, not an act of G-d's will). They actually didn't want to leave heaven, they simply wanted to overthrow Him, but He sent them away, thought of as down to earth or even hell, hence "fallen." (yes, this may also mean the figurative "fall," or erosion of their perfection)

 

[Pal Handy]

pal.
They actually didn't want to leave heaven, they simply wanted to overthrow Him, but He sent them away, thought of as down to earth or even hell, hence "fallen."

Good point....

 

[fm107]

They thought they could overthrow their creator.

Satan and his angels still have access to Heaven today.

Job 1:6-7
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

It will not always be so however, here is what will happen in the future:

Revelation 12:7-9
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

We don't know why it was 1/3 - but it doesn't matter, the fact is God is in control and is all-powerful.

 

[znr]

Maybe they were jealous that God had given humans a whole planet to rule over so they decided to take it over and play God.

 

[Pal Handy]

They thought they could overthrow their creator.

Satan and his angels still have access to Heaven today.

Job 1:6-7
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”

It will not always be so however, here is what will happen in the future:

Christ has already fulfilled this.
Not all of revelations is in the future.
God has recapped what has happened.
Revelation 12:7-9
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

We don't know why it was 1/3 - but it doesn't matter, the fact is God is in control and is all-powerful.

The devil has been cast down onto the earth and can no longer accuse
men to God since Christ died for the sins of all men for all time so God no
longer entertains the accusations of the devil against men.

All men live under grace.

One day God will judge all men but while we are under the New testament
covenant God made with all men in Christ, we are under grace until
the final judgement that is reserved for the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD.

The only accusation left to the devil is his accusation against God to
the hearts and minds of men and his accusation of men to each other.

This is why God tells us to forgive even our enemies because the only way accustaion
of men can come to God is through men and not the devil.

Jesus speaking to His disciples...
John 20:23 (NKJV)
23 If you forgive the sins of any,
they are forgiven them;
if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

God has made peace between the world and himself in Christ so
that we no longer war agaist flesh and blood but evil, the devil.

Peace on earth and goodwill to men....
Luke 2:14
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things
unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Satan was cast down from heaven by what Christ has done.
Jesus speaking...
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

In the Old testament satan had access to accuse Job but in the New testament the devil is
cast out of heaven and makes war with men and the saints...

 

[fm107]

This verse talks about Satan's sin: pride.

Ezekiel 12:17
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

But he was not made with sin in him rather he was blameless:

Ezekiel 12:15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

 

[fm107]

The devil has been cast down onto the earth and can no longer accuse
men to God since Christ died for the sins of all men for all time so God no
longer entertains the accusations of the devil against men.

All men live under grace.

One day God will judge all men but while we ar under the New testament
covenant God made with all men in Christ, we are under grace
and the final judgement in reserved for the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD.

The only accusation left to the devil is his accusation against God to
the hearts and minds of men and his accusation of men to each other.

Christ has made peace between God and man...
Peace on earth and goodwill to men....
Luke 2:14
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things
unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Satan was cast down from heaven by what Christ has done.
Jesus speaking...
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

In the Old testament satan had access to accuse Job but in the New testament the devil is
cast out of heaven and makes war with men and the saints...

Brother, I do not see how those scriptures back up what your saying.

You highlight Luke 10:18 especially - Jesus spoke these words to the 72, Jesus was referring way back to the event which took place long before their time. He wasn't saying that Satan fell from Heaven there and then.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

You can see here in the book of revelation that Satan (the accuser) accuses Christians (brothers for that is what we are in the Lord) day and night. This isn't to say however that the Lord takes up these accusations because as you say, Jesus has become our substitute, but it doesn't take away however from the fact that the devil does still accuse the brethren before the Lord.

Just for clarity, Satan will be hurled down in a coming day - this is yet to happen.

 

[Pal Handy]

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and .the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down

HAS BEEN HURLED DOWN...
When did salvation come?
When did Christ's authority come?
NOW have come....the power and KINGDOM OF OUR GOD
and the AUTHORITY OF HIS CHRIST...
When Christ came..

WE HAVE CHRIST'S AUTHORITY AND IN HIS NAME DEMONS FLEE....
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS HERE IN OUR HEARTS.

 

[razeontherock]

They actually didn't want to leave heaven, they simply wanted to overthrow Him

Minor point perhaps, but the desire was "to be like the Most High." Not necessarily pushing Him off His throne. This suggests it was G-d who started war ... and will finish it.

"for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me" (Isaiah 46:9)

 

[elenore]

The Bible states that 1/3 of angels are fallen. To me, that is a large number. Why so many? What made them want to leave God's dwelling place? Why would God create beings that would rebel against him?

1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

This is my take on it. - there were three arch angels (chief angels) so I don't think it's surprising that 1/3 of the angels (probably those under lucifer) fell with him.
It says that he is the father of lies. (this is just a theory by the way) and would explain us judging them to a certain extent. Judging to me gives the possibility of forgiveness and redemption.

Demons are evil beings, (and angels are Gods territory) so we don't get stupid over dealing with them (to do so is very unwise) but the fact remains that although salvation is a gift, we still earn it.

 

[85_2_2011]

Minor point perhaps, but the desire was "to be like the Most High." Not necessarily pushing Him off His throne. This suggests it was G-d who started war ... and will finish it.

"for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me" (Isaiah 46:9)

Why would wanting "to be like the Most High" warrant going to hell?

 

[razeontherock]

Why would wanting "to be like the Most High" warrant going to hell?

Good question!

First of all, realize the Bible leaves substantial gaps in our understanding of the whole question of satan, and to some extent, evil itself. I think this is intentional:

"by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6)

There is redemption for us, but not for purely spiritual beings. That should tell us our bodies have a great deal to do with this! (Judgment by works.)

The one thing we truly know about satan's fall, is his sin of pride. This is not the only reason that humility before the Lord is paramount in our Christian Faith, but we shouldn't take it lightly ...

 

[fm107]

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

HAS BEEN HURLED DOWN...
When did salvation come?
When did Christ's authority come?
NOW have come....the power and KINGDOM OF OUR GOD
and the AUTHORITY OF HIS CHRIST...
When Christ came..

WE HAVE CHRIST'S AUTHORITY AND IN HIS NAME DEMONS FLEE....
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS HERE IN OUR HEARTS.

Brother, have you even read the surrounding verses? This is obviously going to take place in the future. This verse refers to his second coming - when Christ comes to reign.

Salvation used here goes much further than personal salvation, this is complete deliverance from the power of Satan into millennial blessing.

The authority is the authority which so many people on this planet have denied, but there will be a day when his authority comes and there will be no denying who Christ is on that day. Then all men will bow (Phil 2:9-11), today men have the option to bow (us Christians do acknowledge Jesus is the Christ) but in that coming day when Jesus comes a second time, all men will acknowledge him as God.

The kingdom of our God refers to the millennial kingdom which will be established when Christ comes a second time.

All this is yet to take place.

If you read the surrounding verses you will see it's yet to happen and hence how I am using this verse in context and how you are not.


Your brother in Christ.

 

[Pal Handy]

Past...future...

The Messiah came...the Messiah with come again.

The passage will reveal the Lord who was and is and is to come.

I could show you other passages that reflect what has already happened without taking away from what will come.

Remember that the Jews had a problem with Christ because intermingled
with the Old testament prophesies for the coming Messiah were
verses concerning the FIRST coming of the messiah as a LAMB and
His SECOND coming as the LION.

We could discuss but lets just agree to disagree.

I know that God does not entertain any accusations about me
from the devil because I am totally righteous in Christ so
that there is nothing to accuse me of...Christ paid for all my sins,
past, present and future because Christ's sacrifice was ONCE, for
all men, time and sin.

Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

So if you want to believe the devil is still in heaven go ahead but
I know that he would not have anything to say.....

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died,
He died to sin once for all;
but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin,
but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,
and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[fm107]

Brother, your bring things into this conversation when their is no need to as I agree with you on several of your points.

What we are debating over is 2 things:

1. Does Satan still have access to Heaven?
2. Is Satan the accuser? Does he still accuse us before God?

I believe the answer to the above questions yes (Rev 12:10) though God does NOT entertain his accusations.

This is a very minor thing to be debating about and I'd rather not get into a massive discussion about something I consider trivial since we agree that at the end of the day there will be no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

I'm not saying the Devil resides in Heaven, I'm saying he still has access to it, he still has access to God. His Kingdom is the Kingdom of the air:

Ephesians 2:2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

 

[Pal Handy]

Love you too man....

This where you meet?

 

[MasterpieceMesias]

pal.

also, demons are those who like Lucifer, thought they deserve to be as great as G-d is. So they rebelled against him (if by rebelling, you mean being thrown out of heaven!) He made them perfect, but their own desires offered the demise of their perfection. (translation: G-d made angels sinless, their own desires caused them to sin, not an act of G-d's will). They actually didn't want to leave heaven, they simply wanted to overthrow Him, but He sent them away, thought of as down to earth or even hell, hence "fallen." (yes, this may also mean the figurative "fall," or erosion of their perfection)

question, why do you say G-d as if you're censoring God??

 

[razeontherock]

Humility. He is not censored, He is not fully known.