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Andromeda Galaxy Blueshift

dad

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It is claimed that the Andromeda Galaxy is heading into us and will crash one day. That claim is based on Blueshifted light we see from earth. That alone is not sufficient as evidence. Anyone have any supporting evidence for that, besides the shifted light?

Having raised the question on another forum, it appears that nothing else is used for the grandiose claims.
?

:)
 

dad

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Why isn't blueshift sufficient? (in plain english please)

A wave is measured as a function of time. On earth, and nearby, the observed frequency of a wave depends on the relative speed of the source and the observer.

If a ghost was coming at us, however, no Doppler effect would be expected and if any was seen, the usual rules would be off.

Several things are required and assumed. That,

---first of all what we see is an 'object'! That is, composed of physical material...and only physical material.

--that space exists as we know it all the way to the source

--that light and laws are the same there as well

--that nothing else man does not yet know could reverse or cause the effect

--that the distance is known, at least for claims of when the object will supposedly hit us! :)

--that time exists as we know it here on earth at the source


--etc
 
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freezerman2000

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That anything that moves will leave a doppler trail when photographed in time lapse?
When something is coming at you and you see the "trail" coming from the correct quadrant, what do you think? "It's not moving at all"?
 
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dad

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That anything that moves will leave a doppler trail when photographed in time lapse?
When something is coming at you and you see the "trail" coming from the correct quadrant, what do you think? "It's not moving at all"?
Well, I don't know. But when a crash up is reported, I like to check the facts.

Are you saying we have a trail that the galaxy leaves and we can follow?
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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I think you're confused by terms like "collision." The individual stars in a galaxy are so far apart that it's likely that no matter will actually collide when the two galaxies run into each other. Galaxies are fluids (that doesn't mean liquid). It'll be like two dust clouds blowing into each other.
 
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dad

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I think you're confused by terms like "collision." The individual stars in a galaxy are so far apart that it's likely that no matter will actually collide when the two galaxies run into each other. Galaxies are fluids (that doesn't mean liquid). It'll be like two dust clouds blowing into each other.
Despite your assurances of what is likely, they estimate that just the Milky Way.... ".. contains 100-400 billion stars and is estimated to have at least 50 billion planets.."
Milky Way - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With some 100 billion planets and maybe 800 million stars colliding, I am not sure that your ideas are based on anything. That is all according to your own ideas in so called science of course.

The point of the thread is that Blueshift actually doesn't mean that the 'object' is getting closer maybe. In that case no crash is forecast at all.

Now, when we look at say a spiral galaxy, and see a blue shift on the one end, and red on the other, is there any independent confirmation of the spin direction? (other than the light shifting)
 
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freezerman2000

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On average there won't be actually any collisions between the stars (as surprising as that sounds but if you want, you can calculate it from scratch).

It's the swings in gravitational forces that will cause the damage...
 
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freezerman2000

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It very well could...Any disturbance causes a "wave" of motion or force,no matter how small, I would think.."sound WAVES", waves in the water after something collides with the surface..even digging a hole in the ground would cause a slight disturbance in the surrounding soil, minuscule as it would be...why should gravity be any different..
 
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dad

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On a related note, I would if the collision creates gravity waves?

If it did, could that be a feasible way to detect gravity waves coming from any "nearby" colliding galaxies?
I doubt gravity has much if anything to do with it.
 
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dad

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On average there won't be actually any collisions between the stars (as surprising as that sounds but if you want, you can calculate it from scratch).
Mind games that have no bearing on reality. You thought God would really have galaxies careening into crashes with us??
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Despite your assurances of what is likely, they estimate that just the Milky Way.... ".. contains 100-400 billion stars and is estimated to have at least 50 billion planets.."
Milky Way - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With some 100 billion planets and maybe 800 million stars colliding, I am not sure that your ideas are based on anything. That is all according to your own ideas in so called science of course.
We are confident that there will be no actual collisions because, despite the seemingly large number of stars, the space they occupy is so much bigger that they're small blips in an otherwise vast expanse of empty space. The odds that two stars would happen to meet is extraordinarily small.

Think of it this way: there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy already. Why haven't they collided? The simple answer is that each star is so very far away from any other star. The closest star to the Sun is 4 lightyears away - that means it would take light four years to traverse the distance. What hope is there that the Sun itself would traverse a distance that great, and just so happen to collide with another star?

The point of the thread is that Blueshift actually doesn't mean that the 'object' is getting closer maybe. In that case no crash is forecast at all.

Now, when we look at say a spiral galaxy, and see a blue shift on the one end, and red on the other, is there any independent confirmation of the spin direction? (other than the light shifting)
Yes - the fact that it correlates with every other spinning galaxy, even when we take into account the angle at which the galactic disk is orientated (we see more blue- and red-shift on head-on galaxies than face-on galaxies, for example); the fact that this blue-and-red shifting are themselves small variations on the much larger general red-shift; the fact that these shifts only occur exactly in accordance to the theory that explains them; the fact that these spiral galaxies are spiral galaxies, not diffuse blobs of stars, as we would expect when a galaxy has been rotating for hundreds of millions of years; the fact that computer simulations of the development of galaxies of certain masses shows us exactly what we see in outer space, complete with galactic rotation curves, core bars, etc.

The major sources of evidence that these galaxies are rotating are a) red- and blue-shift, and b) the galaxies' structure themselves. Naturally you'll dismiss these evidences as being "fishbowl, PO, so-called science", but, well, you'd be saying that over a global telecommunications system built upon the same laws and theories as you disparage.
 
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dad

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Why not? The rapture should happen before it hits.

But you can work out the collision probability if you want to.
Why not? Because the way science interprets the universe is nonsense. That includes the blue shifted light that is the (I think sole) basis of the Andromeda crash thing. Our space and it's 3d imagined restraints, and nature doesn't go all the way out there, at least we don't know that it does.

Where are your experts!!? Why have they left you dangling here like this??
 
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dad

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We are confident that there will be no actual collisions because, despite the seemingly large number of stars, the space they occupy is so much bigger that they're small blips in an otherwise vast expanse of empty space. The odds that two stars would happen to meet is extraordinarily small.
That is all in house in box in fishbowl theory. In reality you have not show that to be evidenced and known. Do you even so much as know what space is?? I doubt it.
Think of it this way: there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy already. Why haven't they collided?

..Cause they are here for signs to earth, and not actually some random crash course dummies like science has assumed?

The simple answer is that each star is so very far away from any other star.
No!! That is you belief based answer. The answer I believe is that they all have their places...like the ocean. It ain't really a freak show.
The closest star to the Sun is 4 lightyears away - that means it would take light four years to traverse the distance.
You been there? Prove it..?

What hope is there that the Sun itself would traverse a distance that great, and just so happen to collide with another star?
Zero. It ain't going anywhere.

Yes - the fact that it correlates with every other spinning galaxy, even when we take into account the angle at which the galactic disk is orientated (we see more blue- and red-shift on head-on galaxies than face-on galaxies, for example); the fact that this blue-and-red shifting are themselves small variations on the much larger general red-shift;

Say what?? This shows us the galaxy is moving...how?
the fact that these shifts only occur exactly in accordance to the theory that explains them;

And coincidentally the theory came after the fact? If not detail when you think it was made..:)

the fact that these spiral galaxies are spiral galaxies, not diffuse blobs of stars, as we would expect when a galaxy has been rotating for hundreds of millions of years;
Correction..as YOU would expect WITHIN your imagined way things work. I expect that groups of spiritual beings would tend to hang together, and do that thing they do..:) And where there are spirits, in the bible at times we see spirit craft...or 'housing':) So what a star really is we don't know. Yes, there may be ammonia or olivine or hydrogen and etc involved in the composition of said mass. Look at New Jerusalem, it has lots of materials in it! Don't think some spectral evidence of materials means all your theories dream.

the fact that computer simulations of the development of galaxies of certain masses shows us exactly what we see in outer space, complete with galactic rotation curves, core bars, etc.
Same state based sims don't matter. They are just a way of explaining it.
The major sources of evidence that these galaxies are rotating are a) red- and blue-shift, and b) the galaxies' structure themselves.

Explain?

Naturally you'll dismiss these evidences as being "fishbowl, PO, so-called science", but, well, you'd be saying that over a global telecommunications system built upon the same laws and theories as you disparage.

Not necessarily, if they are good. For example I would not dispute that some thing go round each other...now if you called the little things planets...we might need to talk:)
 
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N

Nabobalis

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Why not? Because the way science interprets the universe is nonsense. That includes the blue shifted light that is the (I think sole) basis of the Andromeda crash thing. Our space and it's 3d imagined restraints, and nature doesn't go all the way out there, at least we don't know that it does.

Where are your experts!!? Why have they left you dangling here like this??

Where is your evidence?

The assumption that laws of physics are the same everywhere is an assumption. It is the easy assumption to make otherwise we know nothing about the universe at all since we can't get a direct measure of what the laws of physics are in different areas of the universe thus no point in looking outwards.
 
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