And they say, "There's no Evidence ... !!!"

2PhiloVoid

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Gotcha, fair enough.

However, that's not much different than the modern bible which we know has edits both in the form of additions and deletions from earlier versions, and many of the Pauline epistles were written by forgers posing as Paul.
I'm going to disagree because I think what Marcion did was a lot different. From my understanding of his ideology, the edits he made to Paul's letters were his and his alone, with no ongoing accountability to anyone else. Of course, that kind of makes sense when you think about; when the Big Guys don't accept you, go make your own cult. So, it seems Marcion did just that.

Even during the time the epistles were being written, we know there were people forging and editing texts or entire letters. He even alludes to people writing forged letters in 2 Thessalonians, which is ironic because that letter in itself is likely forged.
Who is "he" that is doing the alluding? Do you mean the writer of 2 Thessalonians? And as far as 2 Thessalonians being a forgery, I'm going to have to abstain and say that the jury is deliberating over that one ...

So, if Marcion was eliminating edits to original letters, hes fine. If he was editing in order to make them fit his theology (which is probably more likely), then that's not good. However, that was also par for the course for virtually all Christian sects of the day, and for long after.
Yeah, I'm afraid that Marcion was doing the latter--he cut things he just didn't like that Paul (or Luke) said because those items undercut Marcion's own misconstrued theology.

As for Christians of the 2nd century doing the "same thing" as Marcion, this may be true to some limited extent, more or less, since everyone was doing what they could in the social mix of people and media available at the time in order to figure out this "Jesus Guy." The caveat is that Marcion wasn't really following the typical methodology of the day when forming his 'canon' and theology. Some gnostics, for instance, didn't cut things out as much as they tended to collect and accept as many different supposedly Christian texts as they could.
 
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juvenissun

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Or, on the flip side, you and I both see a penny. I say I see evidence of a mint, you say you see evidence of pink elephants.

It works both ways.

Moral of the story is, you need to present and justify your evidence.

But both of us are not saying: no evidence.
That is the argument.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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We do know of some historians who's work has survived, and lived in the area at the time of the events in question. Philo of Alexandria is one such example, he is a noted Roman Historian with ties to the Royal House of Judea and almost certainly would have been in Jerusalem at some points during the lifetime of Jesus. Yet, no mention is made of Jesus at all in his works.

That's puzzling, as even if he didn't follow Jesus, he would have certainly written about a man who lead such a popular movement. He wrote about, and we still have records of much less important local holy men or false prophets. In Jesus case, the whole town showed up to meet him, and things culminated in an illegal trial in front of the Roman Governor himself, and execution, and then he rose from the dead. No historian would have totally ignored a major incident like that.

Philo is the most notable example, however there are other contemporary historians who should have had some knowledge of Jesus if the gospel stories are true, and we have nothing more but silence from them as well.

In essence, we have some notes from historians decades after the fact, far removed from the time or place, and they usually are only relaying beliefs that Christians at the time held. It's also worth noting that even these historians were either Pagan or Jewish, so even being a couple decades removed from the events in question, they heard the stories and didn't think they were credible either, or they would have become Christians themselves.

The historians at the time had no idea of the events in question. Meaning they were either fabricated, or Jesus was such a minor figure that he wasn't noticed by any significant number of people. Even if it's option #2, that wipes out huge key chunks of the gospel narrative.
This is patent nonsense.

Philo is not a Roman Historian, but an Alexandrine Jewish Philosopher. He wrote a number of Torah commentaries in Greek, works on Stoicism and Hellenistic philosophy from a Jewish perspective, and two fragmentary contemporaneous pieces - The latter two is the only thing partially extant even close to perhaps 'history writing', but neither are Hellenistic histories.

These are Against Flaccus and the Embassy to Gaius (Gaius being Caligula's real name). The former is a complaint on the Roman treatment of Alexandrine Jewry; and the latter an account of the madness of Caligula as a method to complain of the bad treatment of Alexandrine Jewry by Rome. We are lucky if Philo even mentions Jerusalem therein, which he does once or twice - for instance to complain of Pilate bringing in votive shields, and juxtaposing this to Caligula wanting his statue placed in Synagogues. Philo fails to mention major events in Judaea, disturbances with Parthia, even an possible uprising in Upper Egypt! It is simply irrelevant to his narrative. There are also major discrepancies between his two accounts. You would not expect him to have mentioned Jesus, so this is absolute nonsense to try and use this as justification for discounting Gospel events. Philo mentions Therapeutae (who may be a form of Essene) and a few minor prophetic candidates - but because they were Egyptian and relevant to his narrative or his philosophy. Jesus would not be. The text is widely available in Classics archives.

So who are all these phantom historians that should have mentioned events in 1st century Judaea, but failed to? Our only real sources here are Josephus and a short summary by Tacitus. Judaea was a backwater Roman province, the only reason they cared was strategic - as it held the flank of Syria to the Parthians, and the land route to Egypt. To expect Roman writers to mention it frequently is ludicrous - now you want them to mention one prophet from there, of many, specifically? This is the equivalent of wanting 19th century British writers to have written on the internal affairs of the Mpondo tribe in Pondoland in Africa. They would only do so if relevant to their own history - as the British write on the Anglo-Zulu war for instance, or Romans write on Judaea about the First Revolt or when there was need to oppose Parthia.

So broadly, our only sources for the period in Judaea is Josephus, the Gospels and Acts, a summary of Roman intervention by Tacitus, and a few random mentions - like Pliny talking of the Dead Sea and how Essenes lived around there with their funny antics, akin to how we might write about Amish or Buddhist monks in travelogues or National Geographic.

So, you wouldn't expect Tacitus to mention Jesus here - though he does elsewhere say he was crucified under Pilate - as he is writing a short summary on military intervention prior to the Jewish War by Syrian governors.

So at heart, we only have Josephus' lack to account for. Josephus however does mention Jesus in the Testimonium Flavium, though corrupted by a redactor. The lost original form most definitely mentioned Jesus, as he goes on to mention James his brother, later. There is even a more neutral Arabic translation of Josephus that may in fact closer represent the original. Josephus was a Pharisee though, who is an opponent of Jewish Messianism in general - his whole account is Pro-Roman propaganda, trying to excuse the Flavians and simultaneously the Jews for revolting, by painting earlier Julio-Claudian governors in a bad light. Again, the Gospel narrative doesn't fit his schema; and we also know Josephus ommited inconvenient things - such as Claudius expelling the Jews from Rome.

The idea that other extent historians should have mentioned the Gospel events is simply untrue. Potentially, we do have fragmentary or quoted writings that may do so in part, but they aren't clear enough to call in isolation - such as Thalles or Phlegon as mentioned above, the Babylonian Talmud's 'Yeshu on a Tree', or Ben Serapion. Just having miracles isn't enough. Hellenistic writings were full of the stuff, from Appolonius of Tyana, to Scipio's Imagines talking to him, to the dead rising before the battle of Pharsalus in Lucan, to omens around Livia, to chasms swallowing men whole like Marcus Curtius.

This is merely a silly argument made and believed because people no longer read classics; or involves serious misrepresentation, obfuscation or being disingenuous, like when Carrier attempts to discard Josephus - literally our only real extra-biblical source, just because it agrees quite well with mentioned things in Acts and such.

The Gospel of Thomas is widely dated to the first century, the view that it quotes the Diatesseron is the opinion of Nicholas Perrin, who's theory has been examined and discredited by other historians. It is far from a consensus historical view, in fact Perrin is the only person who's ever really promoted that idea.
No, the Gospel of Thomas as we have it now is dated to the 4th century. Certain Logia it contains have been found in the Oxyrhyncus Papyri from the 2nd century, but in a different order and certainly not all of it. These are anyway less controversial logia to boot. So the Gospel of Thomas draws on 2nd century material, perhaps even 1st century as some hypothesise an oppositional relation to the Gospel of John, but most certainly represents a later redaction and expansion of material. It is not a first century source.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Physicist Marcelo Gleiser: 'Science does not kill God'

"Science can give answers to certain questions, up to a point," Gleiser pointed out.

"This has been known for a very long time in philosophy, it's called the problem of the FIRST CAUSE: we get stuck," the physicist, a father of five, said.
 
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Erik Nelson

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This is patent nonsense.

Philo is not a Roman Historian, but an Alexandrine Jewish Philosopher. He wrote a number of Torah commentaries in Greek, works on Stoicism and Hellenistic philosophy from a Jewish perspective, and two fragmentary contemporaneous pieces - The latter two is the only thing partially extant even close to perhaps 'history writing', but neither are Hellenistic histories.

These are Against Flaccus and the Embassy to Gaius (Gaius being Caligula's real name). The former is a complaint on the Roman treatment of Alexandrine Jewry; and the latter an account of the madness of Caligula as a method to complain of the bad treatment of Alexandrine Jewry by Rome. We are lucky if Philo even mentions Jerusalem therein, which he does once or twice - for instance to complain of Pilate bringing in votive shields, and juxtaposing this to Caligula wanting his statue placed in Synagogues. Philo fails to mention major events in Judaea, disturbances with Parthia, even an possible uprising in Upper Egypt! It is simply irrelevant to his narrative. There are also major discrepancies between his two accounts. You would not expect him to have mentioned Jesus, so this is absolute nonsense to try and use this as justification for discounting Gospel events. Philo mentions Therapeutae (who may be a form of Essene) and a few minor prophetic candidates - but because they were Egyptian and relevant to his narrative or his philosophy. Jesus would not be. The text is widely available in Classics archives.

So who are all these phantom historians that should have mentioned events in 1st century Judaea, but failed to? Our only real sources here are Josephus and a short summary by Tacitus. Judaea was a backwater Roman province, the only reason they cared was strategic - as it held the flank of Syria to the Parthians, and the land route to Egypt. To expect Roman writers to mention it frequently is ludicrous - now you want them to mention one prophet from there, of many, specifically? This is the equivalent of wanting 19th century British writers to have written on the internal affairs of the Mpondo tribe in Pondoland in Africa. They would only do so if relevant to their own history - as the British write on the Anglo-Zulu war for instance, or Romans write on Judaea about the First Revolt or when there was need to oppose Parthia.

So broadly, our only sources for the period in Judaea is Josephus, the Gospels and Acts, a summary of Roman intervention by Tacitus, and a few random mentions - like Pliny talking of the Dead Sea and how Essenes lived around there with their funny antics, akin to how we might write about Amish or Buddhist monks in travelogues or National Geographic.

So, you wouldn't expect Tacitus to mention Jesus here - though he does elsewhere say he was crucified under Pilate - as he is writing a short summary on military intervention prior to the Jewish War by Syrian governors.

So at heart, we only have Josephus' lack to account for. Josephus however does mention Jesus in the Testimonium Flavium, though corrupted by a redactor. The lost original form most definitely mentioned Jesus, as he goes on to mention James his brother, later. There is even a more neutral Arabic translation of Josephus that may in fact closer represent the original. Josephus was a Pharisee though, who is an opponent of Jewish Messianism in general - his whole account is Pro-Roman propaganda, trying to excuse the Flavians and simultaneously the Jews for revolting, by painting earlier Julio-Claudian governors in a bad light. Again, the Gospel narrative doesn't fit his schema; and we also know Josephus ommited inconvenient things - such as Claudius expelling the Jews from Rome.

The idea that other extent historians should have mentioned the Gospel events is simply untrue. Potentially, we do have fragmentary or quoted writings that may do so in part, but they aren't clear enough to call in isolation - such as Thalles or Phlegon as mentioned above, the Babylonian Talmud's 'Yeshu on a Tree', or Ben Serapion. Just having miracles isn't enough. Hellenistic writings were full of the stuff, from Appolonius of Tyana, to Scipio's Imagines talking to him, to the dead rising before the battle of Pharsalus in Lucan, to omens around Livia, to chasms swallowing men whole like Marcus Curtius.

This is merely a silly argument made and believed because people no longer read classics; or involves serious misrepresentation, obfuscation or being disingenuous, like when Carrier attempts to discard Josephus - literally our only real extra-biblical source, just because it agrees quite well with mentioned things in Acts and such.


No, the Gospel of Thomas as we have it now is dated to the 4th century. Certain Logia it contains have been found in the Oxyrhyncus Papyri from the 2nd century, but in a different order and certainly not all of it. These are anyway less controversial logia to boot. So the Gospel of Thomas draws on 2nd century material, perhaps even 1st century as some hypothesise an oppositional relation to the Gospel of John, but most certainly represents a later redaction and expansion of material. It is not a first century source.
This is also discussed in one of Lee Strobel's CASE FOR... books

Should the Gospel of Thomas be included in the New Testament?

A student of Justin Martyr named Tatian compiled a Syriac translation of the four gospels in AD 175, which was named the Diatessaron (meaning ‘through the four’). He made the four gospels available to those who spoke Syriac. What makes this significant is that the gospel of Thomas shows traces of the Syrian language forms!

[ In the discussion in Lee Strobel's book It is stated that the Gospel of Thomas quotes the Diatessaron in Syriac]

...if you translate it to Syrian, it is not random at all. There are literally hundreds of catchwords in Syrian that are meant to help people memorize the gospel. There are memory aids written in Syrian. The gospel of Thomas was written in Syrian.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Well, there we are then. A man named Jesus existed, he may have been crucified, and a religion grew up around him. And yes, to say that you think this man could actually do magic, really was the son of God, and did in fact rise from the dead is a faith claim, as you say.
When I look at the primary sources, I just see evidence in favour. What others do is to simply ignore the evidence based on a priori grounds, like Hume; or to craft clumsy ways to excuse it, usually in special pleading or somesuch. I see precious little in the way of evidence against the proposition that is not wholely dependant upon the framework of interpretation brought to bear upon the primary sources. So yes, a Faith claim that it really happened in this manner, but the grounds to consider it false historically is thin ice indeed. We aren't dealing with the Aeniad, Atlantis, or the Alexander Romances here.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Physicist Marcelo Gleiser: 'Science does not kill God'

"Science can give answers to certain questions, up to a point," Gleiser pointed out.

"This has been known for a very long time in philosophy, it's called the problem of the FIRST CAUSE: we get stuck," the physicist, a father of five, said.
Alas, though a good quote and he was a practising Christian, it isn't by Werner Heisenberg. It was by a lesser known German Scientist and writer, whose name I can't recall, who suffers the ignominy of being less important than Heisenberg - and thus his quotes rather get ascribed to someone we may actually know who it is.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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This is also discussed in one of Lee Strobel's CASE FOR... books

Should the Gospel of Thomas be included in the New Testament?

A student of Justin Martyr named Tatian compiled a Syriac translation of the four gospels in AD 175, which was named the Diatessaron (meaning ‘through the four’). He made the four gospels available to those who spoke Syriac. What makes this significant is that the gospel of Thomas shows traces of the Syrian language forms!

[ In the discussion in Lee Strobel's book It is stated that the Gospel of Thomas quotes the Diatessaron in Syriac]

...if you translate it to Syrian, it is not random at all. There are literally hundreds of catchwords in Syrian that are meant to help people memorize the gospel. There are memory aids written in Syrian. The gospel of Thomas was written in Syrian.
I haven't investigated such a claim before, of relation to the Diatessaron - but regardless, the Gospel of Thomas as we have it is carbon dated to the 4th century, and the logia it contains are different and in different order, from the same fragments of logia in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri. So even if it didn't contain a trace of Syriac, it would still be a work written later than the 2nd century, probably 4th - though perhaps containing earlier material in some form.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Erik Nelson

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Or, on the flip side, you and I both see a penny. I say I see evidence of a mint, you say you see evidence of pink elephants.

It works both ways.

Moral of the story is, you need to present and justify your evidence.
Wish you could be held to those words.

You and I both see The Big Bang.

I see evidence for a mint. I see a "transcendent" FIRST CAUSE external to the fabric of space time, which brought about the universe.

You see evidence for fantastically untestable Speculative string theories and multiverses.

Why the Beginning of the Universe Cannot Be Explained from "Inside the Room" (FREE Bible Insert) | Cold Case Christianity
 
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Erik Nelson

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Well, there we are then. A man named Jesus existed, he may have been crucified, and a religion grew up around him. And yes, to say that you think this was the son of God, and did in fact rise from the dead is a faith claim, as you say.
Yes, that's the central issue And by "faith" we mean TRUST in the eyewitness testimony handed down to us.

Forced to choose between God's supernatural intervention into human history on Earth, bringing about a resurrection event... VERSUS that somehow all of the Apostles were either fooled dupes or extremely skillful deceptive con men...

Even though they always appeared to be extremely intelligent. Cogent articulate upstanding honest caring compassionate habitually Truth speaking Social justice activists who cared for the poor of the empire...

Who had no motive to lie or even to talk about a mirror crucifixion if it wasn't supernaturally important They had no motive they gained no money no power no sexual benefits...

Forced to choose between one Striking possibility versus another. Christians come down on the side of the Apostles were credible they witnessed a resurrection without being fooled or duped by it.

they believe and have a trusting faith in the Apostles as credible eyewitnesses.

...you think this man could actually do magic...
wait a minute wait a minute hold up

no that is a massive mischaracterization.

Wytches and astrologers may claim that they themselves can work magic all by themselves...

Never once has that been part of Abrahamic Faith. Not so much as one time in 4000 years ZERO times.

ALL of the supernatural intervention's into human history on Earth come from God in HEAVEN. ALL of the Magic originates from OFF WORLD, so to speak OFF WORLD.

100% EXTRATERRESTRIAL intervention into human history on Earth. From HEAVEN to Earth with love, so to speak.

But you and i and everyone else. Really must speak extremely clearly on this point. ALL of the supernatural paranormal special effects come from HEAVEN. To little old Earth. To our pale blue dot. Not from it.

Important point. Allegedly. HEAVEN is INTERVENING onto Earth. HEAVEN gets credit and has ALL of the "patents & intellectual property rights" for ALL of the special effects EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM EVER.

earthlings don't get credit for diddly squat.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Rapid Response: "The Gospels Have Been Altered" | Cold Case Christianity

How do we know that the Gospel accepted by the Council of Laodicea in 363AD wasn’t altered dramatically in the 300 years between its original authorship and this historic council? Lucky for us, we can assemble a ‘Chain of Custody’ for the Gospel of John. John was the ‘officer at the scene,’ documenting what he saw at the time. He then gave his account to the next ‘officers’ in the ‘Chain of Custody’; John had three personal students named Papius, Ignatius, and Polycarp. After John died, these men became leaders in the Church and wrote their own letters to local congregations. These letters aren’t in our Bible, but they have survived as ancient documents. We can read these letters to see if their description of Jesus was different than John’s. Two of these men, Ignatius and Polycarp, had a student named Irenaeus, the next ‘link’ in the ‘Chain of Custody’. Irenaeus also wrote about what he learned from his teachers. He then had a student of his own named Hippolytus. This latter ‘link’ also wrote about what he learned from his teacher.

These ancient men form a Gospel of John ‘Chain of Custody’. We can examine each ‘link’ in this ‘chain’ to see if their description of Jesus is evolving or changing over time. We can examine all the ‘links’ in the ‘chain’ to see if the story of Jesus was altered. As it turns out, the story of Jesus never changed. The description of Jesus wasn’t altered. From the first ‘link’ to the last, Jesus was born of a virgin, worked miracles, preached sermons, died on a cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and seated at the right hand of the Father. Nothing about the Jesus story has been altered. You may not believe it’s true, but we can demonstrate with certainty that the content of the Gospels and the story of Jesus has not been altered.”
 
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Even though they always appeared to be extremely intelligent. Cogent articulate upstanding honest caring compassionate habitually Truth speaking Social justice activists who cared for the poor of the empire...

You trust what you read much, much too easily.
A good historian does not automatically believe anything he is told. He checks it out. He judges it's reliability. He weighs alternative explanations.

The gospels were not written by eyewitnesses. The men who wrote the gospels would not have known Jesus of Nazareth is he walked up to them in the street. In addition, Lukes's gospel was the only one which even claims to be an actual history, and we have seen that Like was an extremely poor historian.

wait a minute wait a minute hold up

no that is a massive mischaracterization.

Wytches and astrologers may claim that they themselves can work magic all by themselves...

Never once has that been part of Abrahamic Faith. Not so much as one time in 4000 years ZERO times.
Don't get all worked up. I wasn't saying that you can't call Jesus's magic tricks miracles.
 
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When I look at the primary sources, I just see evidence in favour. What others do is to simply ignore the evidence based on a priori grounds, like Hume; or to craft clumsy ways to excuse it, usually in special pleading or somesuch. I see precious little in the way of evidence against the proposition that is not wholely dependant upon the framework of interpretation brought to bear upon the primary sources. So yes, a Faith claim that it really happened in this manner, but the grounds to consider it false historically is thin ice indeed. We aren't dealing with the Aeniad, Atlantis, or the Alexander Romances here.
Quite simply, non Christian sources have nothing to offer, except to confirm that Christians existed, and had some sort of religion based around a figure called Jesus.
 
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Erik Nelson

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You trust what you read much, much too easily.
A good historian does not automatically believe anything he is told. He checks it out. He judges it's reliability. He weighs alternative explanations.
so, Should I trust What you're writing is telling me?

The gospels were not written by eyewitnesses. The men who wrote the gospels would not have known Jesus of Nazareth is he walked up to them in the street.
You made that up.

A decorated. Cold case homicide detective. Argues to the contrary.

In addition, Lukes's gospel was the only one which even claims to be an actual history, and we have seen that Like was an extremely poor historian.
You made that up also. Luke records names places in dates that archaeology has consistently confirmed.


Don't get all worked up. I wasn't saying that you can't call Jesus's magic tricks miracles.
The claim is that there has been supernatural intervention on to earth from heaven

A Look at the Insufficient Evidence Objection to the Resurrection of Jesus

"The teaching of Jesus is clear. Even if someone were to see a sign as miraculous as someone coming back from the dead, they could still waiver in unbelief. Jesus is not, however, denying the use of evidence in supporting belief in God. What he is saying is that evidence has its limits on people. Sometimes, evidence helps people believe. Other times, a person’s will is in a negative disposition such that the presented evidence smatters against the brick wall of a person’s mind like a rotten tomato."
 
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