And Now for Something a Little Different...

[Byfaithalone1]

What is the Church? The sheep that hear the Shepard's voice.

What's in for?

To hear the voice of the Shepard and obey.

This sparked a question for me. If there were no church, would the sheep hear the Shephard's voice?

BFA

 

[BigRedBus]

A. What's the church?
B. What's it for?

Here's my take...

A: A church is a collection of people with similar beliefs. This can be on a world, national or local level.

B: On a local level it is for:
1) Providing a place for people to meet and share.
2) It provides a base from which members can make their local community into a better place.
3) It is there in order to grow, which it ought to do if it does 1) and 2) properly.
4) It can provide teaching, but for me this comes further down the list of priorities

On the national level it is there to ensure some level of consistency and to provide support for the locally based church communities.

I wonder if you'd get a different set of answers to these questions if you asked groups who are of a different religion. Would (for example) a group of Episcopaleans, or Eastern Orthodox Christians, or Sikhs, or Muslims give you a similar answer?
If they did, that would be reassuring but I'd learn nothing from it.
If they didn't I'd want to know what I could learn from their different perspective.

 

[BigRedBus]

I have thought more about my comments...
We have a good indication of how a Christian is likely to answer the 2 questions. But how would an unchurched, non religious person answer these questions?

It might be worth adding another two questions to the original list.

1) What's the church?
2) What should it be for?
3) What is it actually being used for? (If you do not go to church, what puts you into a position to comment?)
4) How does the church get from where it is, to where it should be?

 

[OldStudent]

As a kernal concept the church is the embassy of the kingdom of God on earth. An embassy is the point of contact with a government on foreign soil. Within the confines of the embassy are the laws, customs, language, culture of the homeland. It is where negotiations between goverments can occur. It is where a person may come to seek assylum from his own country.

The embassy is staffed by ambassors. I sense that in the context of church we are all ambassors (in the political embassy there is an ambassaor and support staff). When we seek assylum from the fallen world and attain naturalization (marked by baptizm) God certifies us all as ambassors - He has no "support" staff.

God is just itching to close the emassy and bring us all home!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

He has no "support" staff.

How sad that most churches do not understand this concept.

BFA

 

[NaLuvena]

This sparked a question for me. If there were no church, would the sheep hear the Shephard's voice?

BFA

If there are sheep, then by definition, they would hear the Shepard. In this sense, "church" and "sheep" are synonymous.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If there are sheep, then by definition, they would hear the Shepard. In this sense, "church" and "sheep" are synonymous.

OK. Makes sense. Is it your view that "the church" includes any child of God:

(i) regardless of the specific community in which one finds himself, and

(ii) whether or not an individual is a part of any community
​

If so, then I agree.

BFA

 

[AzA]

Interesting analogy, OldStudent.

Were I challenging you on it, I would challenge the premise that God's earth is foreign soil. I don't accept that the Creator is an outsider, absentee, or interloper here. No doubt this makes my concept of God rather different from yours.

Thanks for contributing... I had nearly forgotten this thread.

 

[AzA]

It might be worth adding another two questions to the original list.

1) What's the church?
2) What should it be for?
3) What is it actually being used for? (If you do not go to church, what puts you into a position to comment?)
4) How does the church get from where it is, to where it should be?

Those are great questions.

And there are about a million contrary approaches to numbers 2 and 4!
Which approaches resonate most with you?

 

[OldStudent]

Interesting analogy, OldStudent.

Were I challenging you on it, I would challenge the premise that God's earth is foreign soil. I don't accept that the Creator is an outsider, absentee, or interloper here. No doubt this makes my concept of God rather different from yours.

Thanks for contributing... I had nearly forgotten this thread.

To fill in where I come from:
Adam sold out to Satan.
Satan is refered to as the god or prince of this world. 2 cor 4:4, Jn 14:30.
We are in quarantine from the rest of the universe - angels on assignment excepted.
Throughout the Bible there is a distinction of this world from the rest of the kingdom of God. It is where Satan, sin, and rebellion are.
The distinction remains until the New Heavens and New Earth. But then the distinction turns - this becomes the capitol of the universe when God moves in and Jesus comes home!!!

I hope that helps.

 

[Avonia]

But then the distinction turns - this becomes the capitol of the universe when God moves in and Jesus comes home!!!

How unthoughtful of Him to take off at a time like this.

From what you've observed about parent/child relationships - since we are created in God's image - does this make sense to you OldStudent?

It's amazing that we are abandoned and then we are worth enough to be "the capitol of the universe."

Christianity can be so ego-centric. (directed generally - not at you OldStudent)

 

[BigRedBus]

Aza, you are interested in opinions on a few things, so here's my take...

What should the church be for…?

For me, the church has to be a community resource first and foremost. We are there for them, not the other way round. We shouldn’t be sitting there waiting for the community to come to us – we must go to them, to be what they want us to be. We ought to go without any high minded ideas about how we are going to change people’s behaviour. If we can simply provide a focal point for the local community and make it better because we are there, we have done something very worthwhile.

How do we get there…?

Knowing the local community and what it needs would be a good start. That can only be done by going out to them, looking and asking – they won’t come and tell us. We have to make it obvious that we will welcome visitors, just as they are.

We’ll have to drop a lot of our carefully accumulated baggage if we want to really start moving in this direction. We actually need to be very honest with ourselves and ask if we really really really want the sort of church that we’ll get if we go this way. I guarantee, it will no longer be a cosy Saturday club where we sit around looking smart with plenty of time to talk good talk. There will probably be an influx of new members, none of them born and raised Adventists. They won’t fit the classical Adventist mould, not now or even later, and they will not want to be forced into fitting it. Are we really prepared to discard our perceptions of what a “good Adventist” should be, just for the sake of accommodating new members? Are we really prepared to significantly change the timings, durations, format of our services just to attract and retain the currently unchurched?

I’m talking serious comfort zone destruction here, and I am sure my own church isn’t anywhere near ready for this. Unfortunately, this means if it closed down altogether, the closure wouldn’t even be noticed by the thousands of people who live within a very short distance of it.

(Some of the more established churches in England have already had to make these choices. They have tended to draw their membership from the indigenous white community, as opposed to the Adventist Church which for historical reasons now has a membership here of predominately African and Caribbean origin. Churchgoing rates have collapsed among white English people, whilst remaining significantly higher amongst the ethnic groups that the English Adventist church is composed of – for the moment, at least. Furthermore, continuing immigration brings us a steady supply of ready-made members. These factors insulate the church here from the need to make the choices that other denominations have already had to make – many members might view them as being unpalatable choices. The rank and file membership tends to be so introspective they can’t see the wider picture. Our good fortune hides some real problems, it cannot last forever, and sometimes I wonder if I’m the only person here who has noticed what is happening)

 

[OldStudent]

How unthoughtful of Him to take off at a time like this.

From what you've observed about parent/child relationships - since we are created in God's image - does this make sense to you OldStudent?

It's amazing that we are abandoned and then we are worth enough to be "the capitol of the universe."

Christianity can be so ego-centric. (directed generally - not at you OldStudent)

You are so right about the ego thing. But writings like Daniel, Revelation, and Hebrews hand us a periscope the lets us look over the edge of our ditch a bit.

I was a bit startled with the abandonment idea. I see no abandonment at all. And this gives some expansion to the origional questions opening this thread. I am not coming down on you. I could kind of follow your idea but here is another way of looking at it. I see grounds for considerable frustration on both sides as we (God and us) must deal with the distance sin enforces between us. From Adam through Seth, on down the family tree through Noah, through the line of Abraham, and on through Egypt God's people would find themselves in association with this family. God rather frequently was in personal contact with people in this line. Then, what was now a large family, was organized into a nation with God personally present as its King - a King camping out in a tent with His people for decades! Then we discover God didn't abandon these people - they kicked Him out! when they desired a king like the nations around them. Then God comes and lives among us personally as Jesus takes up residence among us. While here some took up closely with Him, others took to murder Him. Then God's presence was ensconced in the form of church. Church is an order without borders that was free infiltrate the world as yeast does in bread. Inspired by Scriptures and the Holy Spirit, His ambassadors remain in touch with God reaching to us and reaching through us to a world in great need of the grace He offers. Over arching all this are issues being argued that require time and experience to deal with - another thread. Judging from the promises and forward looking passages that can be found, God is really anxious to get this thing closed and over with and welcome His kids home for some, a-hem, lots of hands on, shoulder to shoulder time.

I hope you now have more of a view of God looking at you with a look of hopeful invitation in His eye. Remember, when you were born your name was enrolled in the book of life. He doesn't want to have to erase it (Revelation 3:5).

 

[freeindeed2]

In your own words, please...

A. What's the church?

The body of Christ (all people saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone), and Christ is the head.

B. What's it for?

To serve Christ, to show and be the love of Christ to all. (Sometimes this even happens through what we call 'churches'.)

 

[Avonia]

I hope you now have more of a view of God looking at you with a look of hopeful invitation in His eye. Remember, when you were born your name was enrolled in the book of life. He doesn't want to have to erase it (Revelation 3:5).

I appreciate your response.

Sin separates – love unifies. Our stories of God returning were the only way the people who told them could hold a possibility for the future. It was an appropriate way to understand something important about a joining – a unifying.

We have reached a level of awareness – and are in conditions - on the planet where it’s important to take the next step. And understand there is nowhere for a God who is everywhere to go. And there is no potential we can reach in a distant heaven that we can not create here.

The second coming is a literal event that does not depend on the physical forms we have assigned to it. This is why were are still waiting – 2,000 years later. It’s important that we understand what it means to be a co-creator.

Said more simply, much of we are waiting for is waiting for us to bring it into expression. It’s ready when we are.

 

[AzA]

Aza, you are interested in opinions on a few things, so here's my take...

What should the church be for…?

For me, the church has to be a community resource first and foremost. We are there for them, not the other way round. We shouldn’t be sitting there waiting for the community to come to us – we must go to them, to be what they want us to be. We ought to go without any high minded ideas about how we are going to change people’s behaviour. If we can simply provide a focal point for the local community and make it better because we are there, we have done something very worthwhile.

How do we get there…?

Knowing the local community and what it needs would be a good start. That can only be done by going out to them, looking and asking – they won’t come and tell us. We have to make it obvious that we will welcome visitors, just as they are.

We’ll have to drop a lot of our carefully accumulated baggage if we want to really start moving in this direction. We actually need to be very honest with ourselves and ask if we really really really want the sort of church that we’ll get if we go this way. I guarantee, it will no longer be a cosy Saturday club where we sit around looking smart with plenty of time to talk good talk. There will probably be an influx of new members, none of them born and raised Adventists. They won’t fit the classical Adventist mould, not now or even later, and they will not want to be forced into fitting it. Are we really prepared to discard our perceptions of what a “good Adventist” should be, just for the sake of accommodating new members? Are we really prepared to significantly change the timings, durations, format of our services just to attract and retain the currently unchurched?

I’m talking serious comfort zone destruction here, and I am sure my own church isn’t anywhere near ready for this. Unfortunately, this means if it closed down altogether, the closure wouldn’t even be noticed by the thousands of people who live within a very short distance of it.

(Some of the more established churches in England have already had to make these choices. They have tended to draw their membership from the indigenous white community, as opposed to the Adventist Church which for historical reasons now has a membership here of predominately African and Caribbean origin. Churchgoing rates have collapsed among white English people, whilst remaining significantly higher amongst the ethnic groups that the English Adventist church is composed of – for the moment, at least. Furthermore, continuing immigration brings us a steady supply of ready-made members. These factors insulate the church here from the need to make the choices that other denominations have already had to make – many members might view them as being unpalatable choices. The rank and file membership tends to be so introspective they can’t see the wider picture. Our good fortune hides some real problems, it cannot last forever, and sometimes I wonder if I’m the only person here who has noticed what is happening)

No you're not the only person, BRB -- and I really appreciate what you've said here.

You're spot on on the membership demographics: immigration has been propping up the British church for at least the last three decades. Outside Adventism, you find things like the Alpha Course making some progress among younger and unchurched British folks. Went back a couple of years ago to find a former classmate hardcore and missional. That was thanks to Alpha, not thanks to any of the established churches.

Today, too, I read a report from one of the Wimbledon church pastors, Sam Neves. He was talking about the approach his congregation has chosen to take in their community and, apparently, with conference support

Have you checked Wimbledon out lately? Or Kennington? Either group might be speaking your language and you're not too far away from them... consider connecting, even if it's just to see what your ideas might look like when implemented and so that when you return to your usual congregation you might be able to see your and your peers' options a little bit differently.

 

[AzA]

To fill in where I come from:
Adam sold out to Satan.
Satan is refered to as the god or prince of this world. 2 cor 4:4, Jn 14:30.
We are in quarantine from the rest of the universe - angels on assignment excepted.
Throughout the Bible there is a distinction of this world from the rest of the kingdom of God. It is where Satan, sin, and rebellion are.
The distinction remains until the New Heavens and New Earth. But then the distinction turns - this becomes the capitol of the universe when God moves in and Jesus comes home!!!

I hope that helps.

It helps me understand the basis of your analogy, yes.

It doesn't resonate with me, though, and here (briefly) is why.

In order to sell you something, I have to own it first. We are not in ownership of Earth, and never were; through and since Adam we have been in stewardship of it. Stewardship was Adam's job and it remains our job. As the psalm says, the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness of it, the world and all who dwell in it.

From my perspective, there aren't any ownership rights in play here: the inmates don't run this asylum and we who came in with nothing and will leave with nothing have nothing to sell anyone.

I wouldn't voluntarily cosign a statement that said God was swindled out of His rights in Eden and has been trespassing ever since, or that He suddenly toppled from authority when one tribe started a monarchy. None of that tribe's prophecies about the futility of pretenders or God's persistent engagement would have made any sense had either premise been true. For me, Christ was the logical extension of God's engagement here... not a dramatic policy reversal.

There is certainly a distinction in the scriptures made between a consumptive, destructive order or "world" and an enlarging, creative order or "Kingdom." But since both orders currently operate on God's green Earth I would think it a mistake to conflate either one with the planet or its people. So I try not to.

We do have options, though. And it is always helpful to see those options clearly.

 

[AzA]

To serve Christ, to show and be the love of Christ to all. (Sometimes this even happens through what we call 'churches'.)

Thanks for this. Made me smile.

 

[AzA]

Church is an order without borders that was free [to] infiltrate the world as yeast does in bread.

OldStudent -- I really enjoyed this metaphor. Thanks.

 

[OldStudent]

I think I see what you are saying - everything is God's so we can't lose what isn't ours. C.S. Lewis noticed that God does, however, delegate out a great deal of authority. A high level of stewardship was delegated to Adam. Adam fumbled it. Jesus recovered the fumble. "Fumble" is too a light word but is a useful concept.