and Dispensationalism again

[Keachian]

I have pointed out before, the LXX uses the Greek word ἐκκλησία normally translated as church in the New Testament to describe the assembly of Israel (1 Kings 8:14 for instance) this makes the separation between the "two" peoples of God even more superficial in my opinion, but what are your thoughts?

 

[riverrat]

I have pointed out before, the LXX uses the Greek word ἐκκλησία normally translated as church in the New Testament to describe the assembly of Israel (1 Kings 8:14 for instance) this makes the separation between the "two" peoples of God even more superficial in my opinion, but what are your thoughts?

In this age of grace there is only one people of God and that is the body of Christ.

 

[Dispy]

In this age of grace there is only one people of God and that is the body of Christ.

I agree. It consists of Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law.

It did not begin in Acts 2, at Pentecost, but with the conversion of Saul/Paul.

 

[Keachian]

You guys really aren't that convincing, you're basically telling me that God held off from the "to all nations" part of the Great Commission and then did something completely different. It really makes no sense, I'd also question the validity of the Church historically seeing the protoevangelium of Gen 3:15 if I was to continue down your path, what do you have to show for this strange doctrine? A focus on current events at the expense of saying the Apostles were complete nutjobs, no thanks.

 

[Dispy]

You guys really aren't that convincing, you're basically telling me that God held off from the "to all nations" part of the Great Commission and then did something completely different. It really makes no sense, I'd also question the validity of the Church historically seeing the protoevangelium of Gen 3:15 if I was to continue down your path, what do you have to show for this strange doctrine? A focus on current events at the expense of saying the Apostles were complete nutjobs, no thanks.

The following if from the book Common Questions About the Grace Message, by Joel Finck. I am in total agreement with it, and will defend it as if I wrote it.

>>>To answer the question, let’s take a mental stroll through the Bible. From the fall of Adam and Eve until this present day, God has always sought the salvation of mankind. He has always provided some way for man to approach Him on His terms. Throughout the ages, God has even gone the extra step of commissioning certain individuals or groups to carry His message to the people of the earth so that they clearly understand just what God expects of them. Before the flood, Noah was commissioned as a preacher of righteousness. For 120 years, as he was building that ark, he proclaimed God’s righteousness to an increasingly sinful and wicked world.

After the flood, the world soon turned away from God once again. Mankind showed its rebellion against God by building a tower and a city to make a name for themselves. To this day we know the name of that tower - the Tower of Babel, the city of Babylon. At this point, God commissioned someone else to become a separate nation through whom He could reach these unbelieving Gentile nations. That person was Abram, soon to become Abraham. This nation, which eventually was known as the nation of Israel, inherited the commission to be a light to the other nations, to lead them to the true and living God. Here is how it was supposed to work: God promised the people of Israel that if they would obey His covenant, then He would be their God and they would be His people. As the nations round about Israel looked at the blessing of God falling upon this one nation, they would ask why they were so blessed? Then they would come and inquire, and Israel would point them to their God and say, “We’re blessed because we serve the living and true God.”

Let us give an Old Testament passage to illustrate how this was supposed to operate. This was God’s order for bringing the nations of the earth to Himself through Israel. We sometimes call this the Kingdom program or the prophetic program. We call it the prophetic program because it was revealed in the prophets. It was spoken of by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21). Isaiah 60:1-3, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.” Who is He talking about? In this context, He is referring to Zion. Zion is another name for Jerusalem, the capital city of the nation of Israel, in biblical times. In verse 3 we read, “And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” God’s intention and plan was to bring Israel as a light to the nations and to lift her up on high so that the nations would see that light and so that kings would seek out the glory of God through Israel. This was how it was supposed to work. But unfortunately, many times, it did not work that way. Israel, as the centuries rolled on, failed to be the light that God wanted her to be. Israel, herself, slipped into apostasy. She slipped away from the truth of God’s word and God’s revelation to her. This was the condition that Christ found her in when He came to the earth as a babe in the manger. As our Lord ministered on the earth, His first commission to His apostles was not for them to go out unto all the world. In order for the world to be saved according to that kingdom or prophetic program through the nation of Israel, first Israel had to rise up as a great light. Israel herself was in great darkness when Christ came.

Notice how He first commissioned His apostles. Matthew 10:1-4: “And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbeaus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”

Verse 5, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.’” We should ask the question, why not? Did not God love the Gentile nations at this time? Did not Christ desire to see them saved? Of course He did. But He was operating according to knowledge and understanding that God would bring His light to the nations through Israel. If Israel herself was lost, she first needed to come to the Lord, then Israel could be a light to the nations. This is why He says in verse 6, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” In Matthew 15 we see that this commission applied even to our Lord. Matthew 15:21 says, “Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts.” Notice that the Holy Spirit inspires the writer to show us this is a Gentile woman; a woman of Canaan. Why is that so important? Because of what the Lord is about to say. She comes with a request in verse 22:“She cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'] Does that sound like our loving, caring Lord? He does not even talk to her. Why does He do this?

Verse 25, ”Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” This is going from bad to worse it seems. The Lord knew His commission, didn’t He? He knew he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He knew that the nations could not be blessed until the children were filled. What children? The children of Israel. Let the children first be filled. But notice her faith in verse 27, “And she said, Truth, Lord.” Her answer shows that she understood the program under which she lived. She understood she did not have a claim on God’s blessings directly. She understood she did not have access to the glorious blessings that God promised to Israel. But then notice her statement of faith, “Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” She is saying in effect, Lord I don’t expect the direct blessing that you have promised to your children of Israel. I do not expect that. I just want a few leftovers. I just want a few crumbs. The Lord at that point saw her great faith and so He blessed her. Verse 28, “Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

You see that principle being well established that the nations are not to be blessed under this kingdom and prophetic program until Israel is first blessed. Once Israel was straightened out, then and only then, was the message to go out to the nations. Christ made this perfectly clear when He commissioned the twelve apostles. Luke 24:46, “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”[Here is that same principle. Let the children first be filled. Acts 1:8, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”]

When Israel was filled, then the message could go on to the nations. The only problem was that Israel rejected the kingdom offer. This was a problem from our point of view. But was it a problem for God? Of course not. God had in His mind a plan by which He could reach the nations in spite of the stubbornness of Israel. He had a plan whereby the nations could hear His word and they would not have to come through Israel’s rising. Remember Isaiah 60:3 where God says the nations would come to the light of Israel’s rising. Now consider a contrast to that in Romans 11:11. Here the Apostle Paul draws a contrast between how God reaches the nations today as opposed to how the prophets spoke of Israel’s rising. Under the prophetic program, the kingdom program, the nations were to be reached through Israel’s rising. But in Romans 11:11 we read, “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?[Referring to Israel] God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”Do you see the difference? In Isaiah, the nations are to come through Israel’s rising. In Romans, the nations are blessed through Israel’s fall. How can that be? And how does that tie into the Great Commission?

God revealed his plan to reach the nations in spite of Israel through the Apostle Paul. God determined that if Israel would not go to the nations, He would temporarily by-pass that nation and go directly to the Gentiles. He chose a messenger by the name of Saul of Tarsus to become the great apostle of the Gentiles. When He did so, He temporarily suspended the Great Commission which was given to the Twelve. This leads to the next questions:

Question 14) Where in Scripture do we ever find the Great Commission that was given to the Twelve being suspended?<<<

 

[Dispy]

Part 1
Question 14) Where in Scripture do we ever find the Great Commission that was given to the Twelve being suspended?

This is a good question. Most churches today operate under the Great Commission. They believe there has been no interruption of the Great Commission from the time it was given until this day. But in fact, its suspension was recognized at the Jerusalem Council. In Galatians 2, Paul explains why he had a meeting with the remainder of the Twelve Apostles. In Galatians 2:7-9 we read, &#8220;But contrariwise, when they [Apostles] saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter.&#8221;

Uncircumcision means those who were not a part of the Jewish program. Circumcision was a Jewish ritual. He is talking about a message which does not include rituals, does not include the law, and the keeping of the law, and all of the other ordinances that went along with it. &#8220;When they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me [Paul says], as the gospel of the circumcision was committed unto Peter: "For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.&#8221;But how can they do that? At least two of these men were right there when the Lord told them to go into all the world beginning in Jerusalem, and Judea, and Samara, and then unto the uttermost part of the earth.

How could Peter and John who were standing with the Lord when He said they were to go into all the world, now suddenly say, &#8220;We won&#8217;t go to the nations anymore. Paul, you do that. We will go to the circumcision.&#8221; How can they do that? They can do it because God revealed something new to them. He revealed that God had now begun a new program in order to bring salvation to the nations. It was not going to be according to the Great Commission He had given them. It included a different message. Not only was the responsibility being transferred to a new apostle, the Apostle Paul, but a new message was being committed to him as well. So the answer to the question, &#8220;Where is the Great Commission suspended?&#8221; is right here in Galatians 2:9 - where the remainder of the Twelve Apostles recognize that God has given a new ministry to Paul, and God has given a new message to Paul. It was no longer their task to go to the nations anymore and they stopped at that point. Paul and the new program took over with the Gospel of the Grace of God.

With that background we will now go back and look at the various accounts of the Great Commission and see that it cannot be carried out today, at least not the way the Lord told them to do it. Matthew 28:18 says, &#8220;And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.&#8221;

Many people try to carry out these instructions; yet they cannot and still be scriptural in this dispensation of Grace. Why is this? Because for one thing - to carry out the Great Commission, as recorded here, means you must bind your followers to the Law of Moses. Some will ask &#8220;where does it say that?&#8221; Notice the first part of verse 20, &#8220;Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.&#8221; Did the Lord Jesus Christ ever command his disciples to be subject to the Law of Moses? Yes, indeed. In Matthew 23:1-3 we read, &#8220;Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses&#8217; seat.&#8221; This is the seat of the Law, the authority of the Law. &#8220;All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.&#8221; Our Lord commanded His disciples to be subject to the Law of Moses. Now as He commissions them to take the kingdom gospel to the world, He says to teach them to observe all things He commanded them. What a contrast to Paul&#8217;s later teaching that we are &#8220;not under the law, but under grace&#8221; (Romans 6:14b).

Another area which some try to do but does not work very well is the Lord&#8217;s teaching to sell everything they had and to give it to the poor. He taught that on more than one occasion. (See Matthew 19:21 & Luke 12:33). Did they teach those that they reached to do the same thing? They certainly did! Read Acts 2 and 4 where the early disciples of the Twelve sold everything they had and they laid the money at the apostles feet. The Apostle Paul never tells us to do that. He tells us to be careful not to trust in riches, but he never tells us that we are to sell everything we have and bring it to the apostles feet. Which apostles would we take it to anyway?

Keeping the Commission of Matthew 28 would require keeping the Law, selling everything you have and laying it at the apostles&#8217; feet. Obviously, these are things we cannot do if we are going to try to keep that Kingdom Commission. A more controversial passage and one that is quoted most often is in Mark 16:15, &#8220;And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.&#8221;

Usually this is all you ever hear quoted of the Great Commission. This part sounds wonderful. Of course, we should do that. But the details that the Lord tells them are simply not compatible with the Dispensation of Grace. This is a Kingdom commission. Verse 16 says, &#8220;He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be ******.&#8221; Where do people get the idea that water baptism will save them? Right here in this verse. According to this commission, water baptism was required along with their faith. Does this mean that the water saved them? No. But it was an act of obedience which demonstrated their faith and if they did not do it, it only showed they did not have faith. Some people will tell you this is true today. But the Apostle Paul is clear: Ephesians 2:8, 9 &#8220;For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.&#8221; Titus 3:5 &#8220;Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration.&#8221; There was a time when water baptism was a requirement in God&#8217;s program. This is not the case today.

Mark 16:17, &#8220;And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils...&#8221; This is a kingdom sign. What will happen to the devil in the kingdom? He will be cast out for 1,000 years. &#8220;They shall speak with new tongues...&#8221; What language will people speak in the kingdom? The Bible says God will give them a pure language (Zephaniah 3:9). Everyone will be able to speak the same language once again someday. God gave a gift to these people to illustrate the kingdom. That is not the case today. &#8220;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.&#8221; People today try this and many times end up six feet under. This is not a commission for today. &#8220;They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.&#8221; We will discuss the question of healing later, but for now let us affirm that God can heal, but He is not obligated to do so.

Luke 24:47, &#8220;Beginning in Jerusalem...&#8221; and Acts 1:8, &#8220;...in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.&#8221; Many people will spiritualize this passage and say this means to start in your own home town. For us, they say, the Great Commission is to start in your home town, then your county, and then your state, and then the United States, and so forth. Is this what the Lord was saying? Of course not. First of all, Jerusalem was not the home town of many of these disciples. He was telling them to start in Jerusalem because Jerusalem was to be the capital city ofthe earth, of the Kingdom program. If the capital city does not believe, what good is it going on from there?

To be continued.

 

[Dispy]

Part 2

Are we to begin in Jerusalem today? II Corinthians 5 says we are ambassadors for Christ. We are already in a foreign land. We are already missionaries right where we are. We may go wherever the Lord opens a door, but it does not have to begin in Jerusalem.The fourth and one of the most neglected references of the Great Commission is John 20. In this account, we find that Christ entrusts the forgiveness of sins to human mediators. John 20:19-23 says, &#8220;Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained.&#8221;

Again, we remind you, in this dispensation, forgiveness is not committed to men. There is one mediator between God and men, the Apostle Paul says, the man Christ Jesus (I Timothy 2:5). But at that time, under the Kingdom commission, God committed the authority to forgive sins to the disciples. Does this mean they had the power in and of themselves? Of course not. But they did have the authority. This is something we do not have today. God has not entrusted this to men today. But it was a part of the Great Commission.


The Great Commission was Jewish, it was a Kingdom Commission, but it is not our commission today. Upon hearing this, many will ask, &#8220;Does this mean you do not believe in missions? Does this mean you do not believe in getting the gospel out?&#8221; Of course not. We do believe in a commission, but not the one given to the Twelve. That one has been suspended. God has given us another commission and it is tragically the most neglected commission in all the Scriptures. We have a two-fold commission.


Paul says in I Timothy 2:4 that God &#8220;will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.&#8221; Those are the two things that God wants to accomplish in this Dispensation of the Grace of God. He wants all men to be saved and He wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. What does this entail? In II Corinthians 5:18, 19 we find the ministry of reconciliation. Verse 18 &#8220;And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.&#8221; What&#8217;s that? Verse 19 &#8220;To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ&#8217;s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.&#8221;


The message of reconciliation is simply that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. When Christ came to this earth, died for our sins, was buried and rose again, He paid the entire price of our sin. In so doing, He reconciled the world. That does not mean that the whole world is saved. It simply means that the world is savable. This is the Divine part. Now our part is to preach the word of reconciliation, which says now you must be reconciled to God. God reconciled the world. That is something we could not do. We could not pay for our own sins. We could not take care of our own sin problem. Now He says to be reconciled to God. How do we do that? By believing in what God has done for us through Christ. The ministry of reconciliation is the first part of our commission.


The second part is in Ephesians 3:9. Once a person is saved, then God wants him/her to understand the fellowship of the mystery. In verse 9, Paul says, &#8220;And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.&#8221; Literally, in the Greek (Majority Text), it is &#8220;dispensation of the mystery&#8221;, &#8220;...which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.&#8221;[What is the fellowship or the dispensation of the mystery? It involves the fact that God revealed a new message through the Apostle Paul which had not been revealed to the prophets and had not been told to the Twelve. It was first committed to Paul. And God wants everyone to know about it. This is part of our job. We are asked why we make such an emphasis of the mystery, of the Grace message committed to the Apostle Paul? It is because it is our job. God has told us to do it. If we are not doing it, we are disobedient children.


Many today have been laboring under the commission given to the Twelve. We might commend them for doing something, yet they have been unfaithful servants if they are not doing what God has told us to do in this Dispensation of Grace. We pray that you will not be an unfaithful servant, but that you will carry out God&#8217;s commission to us.

 

[Danoh]

In Mattew 10, the Lord sends the Twelve only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then, in the latter of of that chapter He prophesied to them that their (so called) "Great Commission" (actually the gospel of the PROPHESIED reestablishment of Israel's Kingdom) would meet with great persecution,:and that it would not make it past Israel before His return.

In Matthew 24 He again asserts that this gospel of the kingdom and its continuing persecution will be preached for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come.

In Acts 2, the Spirt through Peter anounces to Israel that Israel's PROPHESIED Last Days are upon that nation.

In Acts 3, Peter continues that theme, preaching the Lord's RETURN to Israel.

Why just Israel - because according to Isaiah 2:1-5 and Luke 24:47, they were to begin at Jerusalem, continuing God's Malachi 3 and Matthew 3 making ready His people - Israel - for their role as His witnesses among the nations, Isaiah 43.

By Acts 15, in light of Galatians 2, and information in Romans 1-3, 9-11, and 15, which Paul preaches in Acts 13 forward, these MESSIANIC Apostles come to understand and agree with this odd, new, unexpected Apostle - of the Gentiles(!!!) - what Romans 11, Galatians 2, and Acts 13, 15, 21 and 22 assert - that God has TEMPORARILY concluded Israel blind, having concluded that nation UNcircumcision (just another, lost, Gentile nation) set it and its MESSIANC commission aside until the fulness of what He is now doing among the Gentiles (in this MYSTERY AGE - spiritually UNcircumcised Jew and Gentile, Romans 1-3) be come in.

These MESSIANIC belivers are thrown by all that. All they have known was what was PROPHESIED. This MYSTERY Paul ALONE preaches leaves then perplexed, Acts 10, 11, 15, Gal. 2, 2 Peter 3.

They only know the spirit of PROPHECY - not this MYSTERY.

In the end, Paul's gospel having been continually confirmed through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, Romans 15, they determine to believe Paul.

Note James' conclusion on the matter - he is only able to look at this Mystery hid in God SINCE BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, til Paul, Eph. 3, Col. 1, through the lens of Known unto God are all his works from THE BEGINNNG of the world, Acts 15. In other words, they only know what was PROPHESIED but determine to believe this odd MYSTERY...

They knew their commission to Israel FIRST was winding down. By 2 Peter, he is pointing to Paul to the answer to what became of Peter's Acts 3 Second Advent preaching.

 

[dan p]

You guys really aren't that convincing, you're basically telling me that God held off from the "to all nations" part of the Great Commission and then did something completely different. It really makes no sense, I'd also question the validity of the Church historically seeing the protoevangelium of Gen 3:15 if I was to continue down your path, what do you have to show for this strange doctrine? A focus on current events at the expense of saying the Apostles were complete nutjobs, no thanks.

Hi and this is what many mis-understand , concerning Matt 28:19 and that is what the Greek word GENTILE means !

It is translated by the following English words :

#1 , Gentile
#2 , Pagan
#3 , Heathen
#4 , Jews

In Matt 28:19 the Greek ETHNOS/GENTILES does not mean that Gentiles of the world , BUT the Jews that were not reached in Acts 1-28 !

Most miss that Israel was set ASIDE as Luke 13:6-9 and Matt 3:10 , Acts 13:46 , Acts 18:6 and Acts 28:28 !

See John 11:48 , 50 , 51 , and Especially verse 52 and also Acts 2:39 !!

dan p