And another archaeological sacred cow is led off to the slaughterhouse....

[Wolseley]

Anybody who knows me knows that I have a deep-seated skepticism when it comes to so-called "experts". My field is history; but that field touches on geology, geography, archaeology, paleontology, genetics, and currently-accepted mythologies such as evolution and uniformitarianism. Every so often, something is discovered that knocks the staunchly-held beliefs of the hidebound academics who stuffily inhabit this universe into a cocked hat---for example, for years it was maintained that the first inhabitants of America were the "Clovis people", whose artifacts were discovered near Clovis, New Mexico, and were dated to between 11,000 and 10,800 years ago. "Before that," the erudite archaeologists haughtily declared, "there were no humans in the Western Hemisphere."

As a result of this almighty pronouncement, archaeology in North America especially was hampered for decades, because once a site got to the "Clovis-level" horizon, they stopped digging. Why? Well, because everybody knew that there wasn't anything below that....human beings did not exist in America any further back than that. Discoveries made in the last 30 years, however, show evidence of human activity that pre-dates the Clovis culture by anywhere from 18,000 to 30,000 years---meaning, basically, that human beings were present in America long before the so-called "Bering Strait land bridge" so beloved of academics supposedly provided a trail for the "first humans" to enter North America.

Anyway, I was just reading another article about ancient Ireland. According to the Conventional Wisdom®™, human beings did not appear in Ireland until about 12,500 years ago, towards the end of the Old Stone Age. However, recent studies of ancient reindeer bones found in County Cork bear clear evidence of having had the meat butchered off of them by human-made flint tools. The reindeer bones have been dated to around 33,000 years ago----or approximately 20,000 years before there were supposed to be any human beings in Ireland. So, what this means is, once again, the "experts" got it wrong. And if they got that wrong, then what else have they got wrong?

Heh, heh, heh.

"Sure, and ye're about two steps shy of bein' anywhere near as smart as ye thought ye were, now aren't ye, luv?"

 

[narnia59]

All you have to do is google "scientists once thought" or archaeologists or doctors to come up with whole lists of things that were once accepted and now disproven.

And for as much as people want to claim religion as being not accepting of science, religion has never been anything like the scientific profession treats each other. They want to bury all the times when an individual's career has been ruined because they proposed something the scientific community thought was crazy so that person got blackballed or worse, and then turned out to be right.

 

[Wolseley]

All you have to do is google "scientists once thought" or archaeologists or doctors to come up with whole lists of things that were once accepted and now disproven.

And for as much as people want to claim religion as being not accepting of science, religion has never been anything like the scientific profession treats each other. They want to bury all the times when an individual's career has been ruined because they proposed something the scientific community thought was crazy so that person got blackballed or worse, and then turned out to be right.

Oh, indeed---take a look at what they did to Thomas Lee, who, in 1951, dated the Sheguiandah Indian site on Manitoulin Island in Lake Huron at 30,000 years old. For his trouble, he was hounded by the archaeological poo-bahs for the rest of his life, had his support revoked, his papers declined, and his credibility ruined.

 

[Diamond7]

However, recent studies of ancient reindeer bones found in County Cork bear clear evidence of having had the meat butchered off of them by human-made flint tools. The reindeer bones have been dated to around 33,000 years ago

All of history hinges on one tiny little discovery. 40 or 45,000 years ago, they discover sowing needles and fishing hooks made out of bone. This is when man was able to make clothing and come up out of Africa. Clothing of course is very difficult to find. It leaves a very thin layer and often all that is left is bones. In the bogs of Europe they do find murder victims that were wearing clothing. This all creates MANY questions. Were the clothing made from the fig tree? We are told that they had fig clothing in Eden. 6,000 years ago God showed them how to use animal skins to keep warm. But this opens up the question of Neanderthals who also came up out of Africa and we are told they used some sort of animal skin to keep warm. Then of course there was the issue of cooking their food with fire. We are told that children given raw uncooked food will not even develop. Cooking food was very important for us to develop the way we did. We have more questions than answers.

We have the same issue in the Philippines. It could be they have been there 30 or 40,000 years. That leaves us with the question if they had some sort of boat to get to all of those Pacific islands. The cataron boats there are made for short distance but they can handle the sea. The Bangka boats were a log at one time with a way to balance them on the waves of the ocean.

 

[Diamond7]

Oh, indeed---take a look at what they did to Thomas Lee, who, in 1951, dated the Sheguiandah Indian site on Manitoulin Island in Lake Huron at 30,000 years old. For his trouble, he was hounded by the archaeological poo-bahs for the rest of his life, had his support revoked, his papers declined, and his credibility ruined.

No one was living here in the great lakes until the glaciers melted. They did leave a lot of arrowheads behind. When we built a house we found some arrowheads. I still have them around here somewhere. It was more like 12,000 years ago when the ice melted and the hunters just followed the animals. On trails that the animals made when the ice melted. There was a big extinction when the wooly mammoths and the saber tooth tigers died off. The tar pits in California have a good record of what was alive back then during the ice age.

100 year ago they paid $30 a month for workers to widen the old trail so a wagon could use them. There is a famous hill here near the old portage where they had trouble getting the wagon up and down. They would slide all over the place when it was wet so they had to put big ditches in to drain off the water. They put a historical marker where they tried to pull a cannon up the hill to deliver it to one of the forts for the soldiers that were fighting the Indians. The french were trading them rifles and whiskey for furs. That was a real mess to clean up. That is why we drove the french down to New Orleans and up to Quebec.

If you want to know the history of an area, talk to the people that live there.

 

[Wolseley]

No one was living here in the great lakes until the glaciers melted.

Assuming, of course, that there were glaciers. The physical evidence of glaciation can just as easily (and many times more accurately) be ascribed to massive amounts of water....say, as if a large space object slammed into the Earth hard enough to displace oceans from their basins and slosh across continents.

Besides which, too many findings have revealed human activity in America long before 12,000 years ago. One of the most recent findings were bones found in a cave in Mexico that clearly show signs of butchering with human-made tools and being cooked over a fire; the bones date from more than 33,000 years ago.

If you want to know the history of an area, talk to the people that live there.

And therein lies a problem: the Native American tribes, from both North and South America, have no tradition of anybody crossing a "land bridge". Their histories assert that the Native Americans were always in America, and that Oceania and Asia were populated by Native Americans moving by water towards the west.

(shrug) It's just like I've said before: the "experts" aren't anywhere near as clever as they'd like people to believe.

 

[Diamond7]

Assuming, of course, that there were glaciers.

There were glaciers and I can photograph the evidence with my camera. When they are working on the highway or putting in a bridge I can and have taken photos of the geology. Also, I talk to the "hard hats" the people with fancy university degrees that stand around during projects like that. They are more than happy to have a conversation about what they learned in school about flood geology.

One example are the groves in the rocks cut out by the glaciers. Like we see on Kellys Island.

 

[Diamond7]

Besides which, too many findings have revealed human activity in America long before 12,000 years ago. One of the most recent findings were bones found in a cave in Mexico that clearly show signs of butchering with human-made tools and being cooked over a fire; the bones date from more than 33,000 years ago.

Mexico is 2000 miles south of the glaciers. The water level in Flordia was way lower at the time and Flordia was way bigger before the glaciers melted. Actually, Miami just changed their building code you have to build three feet higher now to make up for global warming and the fact that beaches are disappearing. Could be 100 years from now the whole state will be underwater. Along with cities on the East Coast like NYC and Baltimore. New Orleans is already under sea level and they have already seen some major flooding.

This is why we have coral reefs and oil deposits offshore now.

 

[Wolseley]

There were glaciers and I can photograph the evidence with my camera. When they are working on the highway or putting in a bridge I can and have taken photos of the geology. Also, I talk to the "hard hats" the people with fancy university degrees that stand around during projects like that. They are more than happy to have a conversation about what they learned in school about flood geology.

One example are the groves in the rocks cut out by the glaciers. Like we see on Kellys Island.
View attachment 327730

Interpretation.

 

[Wolseley]

Mexico is 2000 miles south of the glaciers. The water level in Flordia was way lower at the time and Flordia was way bigger before the glaciers melted. Actually, Miami just changed their building code you have to build three feet higher now to make up for global warming and the fact that beaches are disappearing. Could be 100 years from now the whole state will be underwater. Along with cities on the East Coast like NYC and Baltimore. New Orleans is already under sea level and they have already seen some major flooding.

You're not following me, but that's okay. You're still hung up on glaciers. And I understand---it really flies in the face of the Standard Received Version to reflect on the fact that there were probably people already in Mexico long before any alleged glaciers formed to begin with.

 

[Diamond7]

Interpretation.

You're not following me, but that's okay. You're still hung up on glaciers. And I understand---it really flies in the face of the Standard Received Version to reflect on the fact that there were probably people already in Mexico long before any alleged glaciers formed to begin with.

We keep going around this mayberry bush. I live in the great lakes, not Mexico. In Mexico, you have to look at the water level. You have to study the coral reefs. I know people who operate heavy machinery. No matter where you dig you are going to find deposits from the glaciers. The evidence is overwhelming. I do not even know why you would want to make an issue out of it. We know people came up out of Africa 40,000 years ago. Neanderthals came up out of Africa a lot longer ago than that. The migration of people is well established. How do you think they got from Russia to America? They had to cross over on a land bridge that is no longer there. Back when the water level was a lot lower than what it is now. People had fishing hooks and nets. They stayed close to the water for food.

 

[Wolseley]

We keep going around this mayberry bush. I live in the great lakes, not Mexico. In Mexico, you have to look at the water level. You have to study the coral reefs. I know people who operate heavy machinery. No matter where you dig you are going to find deposits from the glaciers. The evidence is overwhelming. I do not even know why you would want to make an issue out of it. We know people came up out of Africa 40,000 years ago. Neanderthals came up out of Africa a lot longer ago than that. The migration of people is well established. How do you think they got from Russia to America? They had to cross over on a land bridge that is no longer there. Back when the water level was a lot lower than what it is now. People had fishing hooks and nets. They stayed close to the water for food.

We actually know nothing of the kind. The scenario you present above is the usual theory, but it's founded in the old uniformitarian chestnut, i.e., "the world you see around you today is how the world has always been, because 'the present is the key to the past'".

However, that isn't the only paleontological / geographical / archaeological theory extant. Far from it. I, myself, tend to lean towards catastrophism rather than uniformitarianism. Now, I could spend hours typing all this out for you, but rather than go through all that work, what I will do is present you with a list of books that can explain things ever so much better than I can. So, without further ado, I recommend the following tomes. If you take the time to lay your hands on them and read them thoughtfully, I suspect you might come away with a very different frame of reference than the Standard Received Version of Prehistoric Events. The ones I have bolded are the most important works; the others are incidental but worth reading as well.

Allan, D.S., and J.B. Delair. Cataclysm! Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B.C. Rochester, Vermont: Bear & Company, 1997.

Christy-Vitale, Joseph, Watermark: The Disaster That Changed the World and Humanity 12,000 Years Ago. New York, New York: Paraview/Pocket Books, 2004.

Coppens, Philip, The Lost Civilization Enigma: A New Inquiry Into the Existence of Ancient Cities, Cultures, and Peoples Who Pre-Date Recorded History. Pompton Plains, New Jersey: Career Press, Inc., 2013.

Cremo, Michael, and Richard Thompson, Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race. Bombay, India: Bhaktivendanta Book Publishing, Inc., 1998.

Deal, David Allen, The Day Behemoth & Leviathan Died; Earth Disaster. Vista, California: Kherem LaYah Press, 1999.

Firestone, Richard, and Allen West, et al, The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: How a Stone-Age Comet Changed the Course of World Culture. Rochester, Vermont: Bear & Company, 2006.

Keane, Gerard. Creation Rediscovered: Evolution and the Importance of the Origins Debate. Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books and Publishers, 1999.

Kenyon, Douglas, editor. Forbidden History: Prehistoric Technologies and the Suppressed Origins of Civilization. Rochester, Vermont: Bear & Company, 2005.

LaViolette, Paul. Earth Under Fire: Humanity's Survival of the Ice Age. Rochester, Vermont: Bear & Company, 2005.

There are about a half-a-dozen others I could recommend on top of these, dealing with side issues and areas of ancient pre-history, but I don't want to overwhelm you. If you read nothing but the very first book I listed, by Allan and Delair, it'll give you a pretty good grounding in the topic.

 

[Diamond7]

Allan, D.S., and J.B. Delair. Cataclysm! Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B.C. Rochester, Vermont: Bear & Company, 1997.

"Cataclysm! Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B.C." is a book written by Allan and Delair that proposes a theory about a cosmic catastrophe that occurred around 9500 BC. The authors present evidence from various fields, including archaeology, geology, and ancient texts, to support the idea that a celestial impact or close encounter with a celestial body caused widespread destruction on Earth.

According to the authors, this event led to the collapse of civilizations and widespread environmental changes, and may have been responsible for the loss of knowledge and technological advancements of the time. The authors also suggest that this event may have been the source of legends and myths about a great flood or other cataclysmic events in various cultures around the world.

It is important to note that this theory is not widely accepted by the scientific community and that there is limited evidence to support it. Many of the claims made in the book have been criticized as being based on selective and misinterpreted evidence, and there is a lack of supporting data from more established scientific disciplines such as astronomy and geology. Additionally, the idea of a cosmic catastrophe in 9500 BC has not been supported by more recent studies in these fields.

 

[Diamond7]

Christy-Vitale, Joseph, Watermark: The Disaster That Changed the World and Humanity 12,000 Years Ago. New York, New York: Paraview/Pocket Books, 2004.

"Watermark: The Disaster That Changed the World and Humanity 12,000 Years Ago" is a book written by Joseph Christy-Vitale. In the book, the author presents a theory that a global flood occurred around 12,000 years ago, which had a significant impact on the world and humanity.

According to the author, this flood was caused by a sudden and massive release of water from melting glaciers, which caused widespread destruction and altered the course of human history. The author argues that this event led to the loss of many ancient civilizations and technological advancements, and had a lasting impact on the environment and human populations.

It is important to note that this theory is not widely accepted by the scientific community, and there is limited evidence to support it. The idea of a global flood around 12,000 years ago has been criticized as being based on anecdotal evidence and unsupported by more established scientific disciplines such as geology and hydrology. Additionally, the concept of a global flood has not been supported by more recent studies and findings in these fields.

 

[Diamond7]

Coppens, Philip, The Lost Civilization Enigma: A New Inquiry Into the Existence of Ancient Cities, Cultures, and Peoples Who Pre-Date Recorded History. Pompton Plains, New Jersey: Career Press, Inc., 2013.

"The Lost Civilization Enigma: A New Inquiry Into the Existence of Ancient Cities, Cultures, and Peoples Who Pre-Date Recorded History" is a book written by Philip Coppens. In the book, the author explores the idea of lost civilizations and cultures that pre-date recorded history.

The author presents evidence from various fields, including archaeology, anthropology, and ancient texts, to suggest that advanced civilizations and cultures existed prior to the civilizations that are commonly recognized in recorded history. He argues that these civilizations have been lost to history, possibly due to the destruction of their records or the suppression of information by later cultures.

The author also discusses the possibility of advanced extraterrestrial civilizations that may have had a significant impact on human history, and suggests that the evidence of these civilizations may have been hidden or suppressed by later cultures.

It is important to note that the ideas and theories presented in this book are not widely accepted by the scientific community and are considered to be speculative and based on limited or circumstantial evidence. The author's views on the existence of lost civilizations and extraterrestrial influences on human history are not supported by mainstream scientific thought, and further research is needed to verify these claims.

We seem to have a common thread here in that the views are NOT supported by Science. So the evidence shows that the Bible is accurate and true and that civilization began with Adam and Eve. There were no aliens and their was no civilization before Ancient Mesopotamia.

I would be glad to look at any real evidence that you may have.

 

[Diamond7]

If you read nothing but the very first book

Do you have any evidence because none of your books seem to be accepted by Science.

 

[Wolseley]

Do you have any evidence because none of your books seem to be accepted by Science.

LOL! Of  course they're not "accepted by science"---because "science" always chooses the data that fits their theories, rather than allowing their theories to be determined by the data.

"Does this fossil we found fit out ideas? Groovy! It corroborates our theory!" "Oh, no... this finding flies in the face of our theory! If we publish what we've actually found, we'll lose all our funding!!! We'd better declare it 'anomalous' and ignore it."

Ergo, at this point, we're at an impasse. You trust the hidebound old academics and their "peer-reviewed" journals (i.e., "They agree with us in every particular"), and I trust researchers who are able to think outside the box and formulate new ideas based on evidence that isn't carefully cherry-picked. I'm not going to convince you of anything, and I can assure you that you're certainly not going to convince me. So, thanks for playing, and have a nice day.

 

[Diamond7]

LOL! Of  course they're not "accepted by science"---because "science" always chooses the data that fits their theories, rather than allowing their theories to be determined by the data.

It is true that humans have biases and preconceived notions. Science seeks to build theories based on evidence, and updates them when new data contradicts them. This helps minimize bias and preconceived notions.

It sounds like you are the one trying to get the date to conform to your preconceived ideas. I may do the same because I try to get science to conform to what we read in our Bible.

I would have to see evidence of a civilization that existed and was destroyed. I have looked but I have never seen even a shred of evidence for this idea. Also this is contradicted by the Bible.