Ancestor Worship

[MKJ]

Bull? No, really, that's the issue; that saints, not God, can hear all at once. That's what Protestants...protest.

I have heard some express that question. I think there are a variety of reasons depending on the individual and group.

In the case of some fundamentalists, they believe the dead are in a sort of hibernation or soul sleep, so they are unaware of what is going on in the world.

 

[Winter]

yes, I am aware that is your view. However my topic is to present "WHY" that isn't the case---why Catholics do not worship ancestors though Ancestor Worship may appear as having many parallels as RC devotion to Saints and Mary.

Don't take offence about what I'm saying. I'm a christian with weak faith who barely can stand in the Lord Jesus. Please understand---and forgive me for offending you---that I have a concern and I'm asking for it to be addressed. That is why I am asking for your views to be presented and the case made as to why RC devotion to Saints/Mary is not Ancestory Worship.


I am a weak christian. My God help me. I can barely stand, let alone swing the sword of THe Word against others.

I'm glad you are seeking to find some clarification to what we believe. Thank you. Most folks have already made up their mind about us and believe everything they read. At least you are seeking to understand even if you don't agree. May God bless your spiritual journey as you seek answers and strength.

 

[HiddenChalice]

They can only hear what God allows them to hear and they are outside of time and space, so yeah I guess they can hear all at once. they are outside of time and space.

God allows them to hear

..allows them to hear

...to hear

I would love to know any scriptural references for this. I find this explanation interesting. In fact, feel free to provide extra-biblical sources as well, such as what the Early Church Fathers believed and taught regarding this.

They also were persecuted if they were found to be Christians so they hide their Christianity inside paganism.

I hope you aren't implying that those christians were deceiving the pagans through false pretension or false implication in order to fly under the radar. I'll leave you benefit of the doubt because that is not what I think you were trying to tell me.

 

[Lady Bug]

So what if it looks like or is something like what a pagan would do... so what..?

Way back in the Roman times day, that is what the first early Christians would do. They were converts from being pagans so they took their pagan rituals and made them Christ centered. They also were persecuted if they were found to be Christians so they hide their Christianity inside paganism.

It's worshipping Christ and following Christ. We admire the Saints because by grace alone given them from God they became what Christ redeemed us all to be, TRUE sons and daughters of God.

We do not wear righteous like it's clothing. We become it. The saints became it and they are our inspiration. We can through the grace that God has given us become what Jesus died on the cross for us all to be. Righteousness, holy, children of the Divine being.

As St. Athanasius said, "God became man so that man can become God". Meaning, we become through the redemption of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, we transform and become the closest to being perfect (holy) as we can.

By way of the cross we can lose all the sinful habits, transform the fallen person, ridding ourselves the fallen part of our nature.

The saints accomplished this and darn right we are going to look up to them and pray to them and admire them because that is what we are all here for, to do what they did as Christians, as believers, as followers.

God took Adam's sin, that we are all born with and washed it from us in the blood of Christ. So now we are free, free to turn the ship around and go upward and become holy people who are no longer slaves to sin.

If we fall and commit sin or have sinful habits still, because of Christ and because we are "saved" by God's grace, God will forgive when we repent and then we can get back to the business of transforming. The Saints are the example of what God's will is for us all. That is why we look to them.

There is a verse in the Bible that indicates at least that we are not supposed to take on pagan rituals (and give a different name on it and label it Christ-centered just so we can justify ourselves).

 

[Gwendolyn]

There is a verse in the Bible that indicates at least that we are not supposed to take on pagan rituals (and give a different name on it and label it Christ-centered just so we can justify ourselves).

This isn't a ritual, though.

 

[benedictaoo]

There is a verse in the Bible that indicates at least that we are not supposed to take on pagan rituals (and give a different name on it and label it Christ-centered just so we can justify ourselves).

Communion of the Saints is not a ritual. Its a reality, that these people lived holy lives to an heroic extent.

They achieved what Christ died on the cross for us all to be. They achieved sanctity. They gained through grace, the three theological virtues we are all given in baptism (faith, hope, and love) and grew in these virtues to an heroic degree. That is not a ritual... It's how they lived.

So a word about rituals in general, if the focus is on false gods, that is what is forbidden because its pagan worship.

Anything that is Christ centered is no longer a pagan ritual, its a Christian ritual. Its Christian worship. The best example I can give of this worship is the consecration of the Eucharist. That's a ritual and its the epitome of worshiping Christ.

 

[strelok0017]

All inferences of prayer to saints, as far as I know, are in the Apocryphal books. Am I wrong?

 

[Ave Maria]

yes, I am aware that is your view. However my topic is to present "WHY" that isn't the case---why Catholics do not worship ancestors though Ancestor Worship may appear as having many parallels as RC devotion to Saints and Mary.

Don't take offence about what I'm saying. I'm a christian with weak faith who barely can stand in the Lord Jesus. Please understand---and forgive me for offending you---that I have a concern and I'm asking for it to be addressed. That is why I am asking for your views to be presented and the case made as to why RC devotion to Saints/Mary is not Ancestory Worship.


I am a weak christian. My God help me. I can barely stand, let alone swing the sword of THe Word against others.

Let me try to make what she is saying clear. It is not a "view". It is a fact. We Catholics do not worship the Saints. Don't you think we Catholics would know if we were actually worshiping Saints? Don't you think we Catholics know better what we are actually doing than someone who isn't Catholic? I mean no offense in asking these questions and in saying these things but sometimes a person has to be a little bit blunt to get a point across. May God bless you and bring you home to the Catholic Church which is the one and only completely true Church and is the one and only Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[benedictaoo]

I would love to know any scriptural references for this. I find this explanation interesting. In fact, feel free to provide extra-biblical sources as well, such as what the Early Church Fathers believed and taught regarding this.

I have to brush up on my apologetic skills. I haven't done this in a while...

Why would scripture need to say this? We pray for people all the time right? I can pray for all the people in the Middle East at once. Millions of them at once. I do not need to have any divine attributes to do that. One doesn't have to be omnipotent to pray for another. And are you arguing that when we die we don't, A) Live still? and B) are outside this material world? Outside the concept of time and space?

Interesting if you argue that.

But... The “cloud of witnesses” that we are surrounded by. I know you've heard it before. There are tones of scripture but I'm not going to dig it up and copy and paste. Its way to time consuming. I'll leave you with this to peruse through. Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER

I hope you aren't implying that those christians were deceiving the pagans through false pretension or false implication in order to fly under the radar. I'll leave you benefit of the doubt because that is not what I think you were trying to tell me.

What I'm saying is this is an historical fact of the matter. This IS what the first generation Christians had to do to survive and this went on for several generations. They went underground to worship and on top they hid their devotion to Christ. It is what it is.

Its objectively a fact and you need to be thankful for this because this is how Christianity survived and many, many were martyred for their faith when caught. They, those who went before us, that cloud of witness, is why you and I know about Christ. These brave holy people paved the way for you and me.

and FYI- guess what? No bibles back then... what do you think they used? And there were no bible thumping Baptists either. Y'all are only 300 years old. The Reformation did not happen until 1500 years after the fact.

This is the early Church, those who learned straight form those who walked with Christ.

 

[benedictaoo]

All inferences of prayer to saints, as far as I know, are in the Apocryphal books. Am I wrong?

very.

Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER

 

[truefiction1]

I would love to know any scriptural references for this. I find this explanation interesting. In fact, feel free to provide extra-biblical sources as well, such as what the Early Church Fathers believed and taught regarding this.

HiddenChalice, In the Traditional understanding of the Orthodox Church, which I assume is the same in the Roman Catholic Church, the most important scriptural account that bears witness to the truth of the communion of the saints is embodied within the witness to the Transfiguration (Matthew 17 1-13). The following article taken from the Orthodox Study Bible may help:

" 'And He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light' (Matt. 17:2).​

The Transfiguration is a theophany-a manifestation of God, especially of the divinity of Christ, through a display of His uncreated, divine energy. Therefore, the Orthodox Church celebrates the Transfiguration of the Lord as a major feast day.
Several elements of the Transfiguration show that Christ is Messiah and God.

1. Because God is light (1 John 1:5), the bright cloud, the shining of Jesus’ face like the sun, and the whiteness of His garment (Matt. 17:2, 5) all demonstrate that Jesus is God. (In some icons this light is shown as beyond white, a blue-white, ineffable color, indicating its spiritual origin).
2. The Father bears witness from heaven concerning His Son. He does not say, “This has become My beloved Son,” but “This is My beloved Son” (Matt. 17:5), indicating that this divine glory is Christ’s by nature. From eternity past, infinitely before Jesus’ Baptism and Transfiguration, He is God’s Son, fully sharing in the essence of the Father: Jesus Christ is God of God.
3. The Transfiguration not only proclaims Christ’s divine sonship, but foreshadows His future glory when He as the Messiah will usher in the long-awaited Kingdom. The bright cloud recalls temple worship and the cloud that went before the Israelites in the wilderness, the visible sign of God being extraordinarily present. Peter sees this as a sign that the Kingdom has come. Knowing that the Feast of Tabernacles is the feast of the coming Kingdom, he asks to build booths (Matt. 17:4), as was done at that feast, to serve as symbols of God’s dwelling among the just in the Kingdom.
4. Moses represents the Law and all those who have died. Elijah represents the Prophets and-since he did not experience death-all those who are alive in Christ. Their presence shows that the Law and the Prophets, the living and the dead, all bear witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the fulfillment of the whole Old Testament. The presence of Moses and Elijah also manifests the communion of the saints (Heb. 12:1). Both men are immediately recognizable, and talk with the Lord. The disciples are able to understand Jesus’ words that “Elijah has come already” (Matt. 17:12) referring to John the Baptist. Their eyes have been opened to the fact that Malachi’s prophecy (Matt. 4:5, 6) refers to one coming “in the spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), rather than to Elijah himself.

1. Finally, the Holy Trinity is manifest here, for Christ is transfigured (Matt. 17:2), the Father speaks from heaven testifying to Jesus’ divine sonship (Matt. 17:5), and the Spirit is present in the form of a dazzling light surrounding Christ’s Person, overshadowing the whole mountain (Matt. 17:5)."

The Book of Hebrews, when referencing all the saints of the Old Testament, who stand as witnesses to Jesus Christ (the Word of God) coming in glory as the awaited Savior of the world, refers to them as the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) that surround us. Now, if Moses and Elijah are present with God in the "bright cloud" and talking with Him, then it stands to reason that all others who have died in Christ are with him also in the Kingdom of God (the bright cloud).

Hope this helps. As for your personal struggles with faith in Christ, you may find my personal testimony on how I came to Christ (see the "HERE" link below) encouraging. Maybe not -- I dunno.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yep. The old testament dudes conversing with Jesus and also the rich man and Lazarus.

The rich man was given permission by God to go visit his relatives to let them know that a life of sin is not worth it.

But more importantly I like our non Catholic guests to ponder and ask themselves why do they think the act of praying is an act of worship? Or that praying and admiring is a ritual? Praying is asking, petitioning. Praying is not a ritual.

And the Saints ability to "hear" a prayer, a petition, in what way is an act of worship? Its just asking them something. In what way is the ability to hear a divine attribute? I can hear, I'm not divine. I can pray for a million people at once half way cross the world. I'm not divine.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

I was always taught that prayer was part of worship.

 

[isshinwhat]

To pray technically means nothing more than to ask, for example, see this stanza penned by Sir Walter Ralegh:

Now what is love? I pray thee, tell.
It is that fountain and that well
Where pleasure and repentance dwell.
It is perhaps the sauncing bell
That tolls all into heaven or hell:
And this is love, as I hear tell.


So you are correct in a sense, prayer (asking/petition) is a part of worship, but it is not exclusive to worship alone.

 

[strelok0017]

@benedictaoo

Does't most of what is said there look like an inference rather than what the Bible really says?

 

[truefiction1]

@benedictaoo

Does't most of what is said there look like an inference rather than what the Bible really says?

An inference that flows from the spiritual gift of discernment, which is the offspring of the spiritual gift of humility, is the only thing enables anyone at all to truly understand what the "Bible really says". Come and see for yourself.

 

[MKJ]

I was always taught that prayer was part of worship.

Sure, it generally is.

But that does not mean that all prayer is worship.

Kneeling can be part of worship, but when I am kneeling down washing the floor, it is not an act of worship.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Sure, it generally is.

But that does not mean that all prayer is worship.

Kneeling can be part of worship, but when I am kneeling down washing the floor, it is not an act of worship.

Oh I don't know - little things like cleaning the floor can be worship too - but I take your point.

 

[MKJ]

Oh I don't know - little things like cleaning the floor can be worship too - but I take your point.

When I am kneeling on the floor to scub it, I am not worshiping - I am usually cursing the dog.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]