An obvious question.....

[StormyOne]

My first thread of the new year begins with a simple question.....I will admit that I have borrowed this question from a good friend of mine..... here it is:

Why would someone (in this case the Creator of everything) who wants to save you, hide the message you need to be saved and give it to a small group of people? What guarantee would He have that this small group would accurately convey the message?

thoughts?

 

[BigRedBus]

Good question, and no I simply don’t think He would – why restrict a message to a small and insular group (any one, not just the SDA Church) when it can be broadcast to much bigger wider groups, and ones that are culturally much more open, welcoming and accessible to others?

I was brought up in a non denominational free church and the salvation message we were taught was based heavily on John 3:16, with emphasis on the word “whosoever”. That sounded inclusive enough to me at the time. But now I think even the way Christians interpret the central message in that verse is restricting. The reason I think that is, because it comes from a Christian direction, the verse can be taken as confining salvation only to those who become Christians. That take automatically excludes many devout and good people from all the world’s other religions and that exclusion simply doesn’t make sense to me. I have no biblical basis for believing that Christianity is not the only true way to God, but then the Bible isn’t a place I’d expect to find such sentiments anyway, explicit or otherwise. It would be like a Toyota advert telling you that Hondas are just as good actually. Anyway, my particular take on things widens the goalposts even further and gets ever more distant from the concept of a small group with exclusive insight into the only possible truth.

To return to your original question, and expand: If a religion / denomination really had “The Truth” – not just so they knew it, but also so they lived it… they wouldn’t have to tell other people they had the truth – other people would tell them!

 

[k4c]

The Good News can and is carried by the feet of any person obedient when they are sent.

Romans 10:13-15 For "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'' How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!''

Once one receives the Gospel they enter into a new life with Christ where they will learn and grow.

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

As one begins to grow in truth and knowledge they will find that many of the things taught in mainline Christanity has its roots in paganism and Greek mythology. As they begin to search for a clearer understanding of God and His plan for mankind they will find themselves being drawn to those who have the clearer truth, this is where the SDA come. They will find themselves being drawn to the SDA only because of a desire for a like minded bible truth fellowship.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

My first thread of the new year begins with a simple question.....I will admit that I have borrowed this question from a good friend of mine..... here it is:

Why would someone (in this case the Creator of everything) who wants to save you, hide the message you need to be saved and give it to a small group of people? What guarantee would He have that this small group would accurately convey the message?

thoughts?

It is interesting to me that the great commission is about making disciples (and not specifically about broadcasting truth). As I have considered the concept of "making disciples," I have reached the conclusion that disciple making is primarily about building relationships and is not dependent upon coercing another to believe as you do.

Thoughts?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

It is interesting to me that the great commission is about making disciples (and not specifically about broadcasting truth). As I have considered the concept of "making disciples," I have reached the conclusion that disciple making is primarily about building relationships and is not dependent upon coercing another to believe as you do.

Thoughts?

BFA

BFA agreed... salvation was implemented in the context of relationship... i.e. God loved so he saved.... that to me is the starting point... of course it is easier for some to believe that they are doing a righteous work by sharing "the truth" then asking people if they accept what was shared, but as you have pointed out, that is not making a disciple.....

As someone said somewhere else, God loves all his children, not a select few...

 

[StormyOne]

Good question, and no I simply don’t think He would – why restrict a message to a small and insular group (any one, not just the SDA Church) when it can be broadcast to much bigger wider groups, and ones that are culturally much more open, welcoming and accessible to others?

I was brought up in a non denominational free church and the salvation message we were taught was based heavily on John 3:16, with emphasis on the word “whosoever”. That sounded inclusive enough to me at the time. But now I think even the way Christians interpret the central message in that verse is restricting. The reason I think that is, because it comes from a Christian direction, the verse can be taken as confining salvation only to those who become Christians. That take automatically excludes many devout and good people from all the world’s other religions and that exclusion simply doesn’t make sense to me. I have no biblical basis for believing that Christianity is not the only true way to God, but then the Bible isn’t a place I’d expect to find such sentiments anyway, explicit or otherwise. It would be like a Toyota advert telling you that Hondas are just as good actually. Anyway, my particular take on things widens the goalposts even further and gets ever more distant from the concept of a small group with exclusive insight into the only possible truth.

To return to your original question, and expand: If a religion / denomination really had “The Truth” – not just so they knew it, but also so they lived it… they wouldn’t have to tell other people they had the truth – other people would tell them!

good points BigRedBus, I agree that sometimes the view is much to narrow and restrictive.... the circle literally is not big enough.... a friend of mine shared this from the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, "God made so many different kinds of people, why would he allow only one way to serve him?" That should give us pause I would think....

 

[StormyOne]

As one begins to grow in truth and knowledge they will find that many of the things taught in mainline Christanity has its roots in paganism and Greek mythology. As they begin to search for a clearer understanding of God and His plan for mankind they will find themselves being drawn to those who have the clearer truth, this is where the SDA come. They will find themselves being drawn to the SDA only because of a desire for a like minded bible truth fellowship.

Or not.... it is possible for people to study the bible and arrive at a totally different conclusion than the one taught by adventism... "truth" can be overrated....

 

[Avonia]

As one begins to grow in truth and knowledge they will find that many of the things taught in mainline Christanity has its roots in paganism and Greek mythology.

Of course. What's wrong with that? I would suggest that all cultures have roots in paganism. It's amazing that "pagan" has such negative connotations to so many Christians.

 

[Restin]

Why would someone (in this case the Creator of everything) who wants to save you, hide the message you need to be saved and give it to a small group of people? What guarantee would He have that this small group would accurately convey the message?

thoughts?

Who says the main goal of the Creator is to save ME/YOU/US...?

Consider that God is demonstrating the heights and depths of God's love and mercy to an entire universe.

This 'small group of people' set the stage for Jesus to come in human form. This 'small group of people' were given more knowledge about God than anyone else in the universe, so they are the greatest sinners (includes SDAs who have more light into the mysteries of God). Note that Paul calls himself 'chief' of 'sinners'....as he was given greater understanding (greater than others) into the mysteries of God.

If one never sees himself a sinner, and does not see the need of forgiveness, their understanding of the LOVE of God is lessened accordingly...

Luke 7:47 ....to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. KJV

 

[BigRedBus]

Of course. What's wrong with that? I would suggest that all cultures have roots in paganism. It's amazing that "pagan" has such negative connotations to so many Christians.

Yes, I absolutely agree. I suspect Christians often confuse paganism with satanism, when they are actually totally separate. Whilst satanism is certain to be harmful to its adherents, paganism is not. Paganism is simply the true indigenous religion in many countries that are nowadays regarded as having a Christian tradition.

 

[StormyOne]

Who says the main goal of the Creator is to save ME/YOU/US...?

I didn't say that is was, nor does the question imply that the main goal of the Creator is to save us...

Consider that God is demonstrating the heights and depths of God's love and mercy to an entire universe.

Is that what you believe?

This 'small group of people' set the stage for Jesus to come in human form. This 'small group of people' were given more knowledge about God than anyone else in the universe, so they are the greatest sinners (includes SDAs who have more light into the mysteries of God). Note that Paul calls himself 'chief' of 'sinners'....as he was given greater understanding (greater than others) into the mysteries of God.

How would one know that if they had not interviewed everyone else in the universe... to suggest that God would only share knowledge with only a small group of people, given that billions of people have existed is tenuous...

If one never sees himself a sinner, and does not see the need of forgiveness, their understanding of the LOVE of God is lessened accordingly...

How so? I think loving parents (christian or not) understand better than most what the love of God is...

 

[Restin]

Originally Posted by Restin
Consider that God is demonstrating the heights and depths of God's love and mercy to an entire universe.

Is that what you believe?

Yes, that is what I believe...

Originally Posted by Restin
If one never sees himself a sinner, and does not see the need of forgiveness, their understanding of the LOVE of God is lessened accordingly...

How so? I think loving parents (christian or not) understand better than most what the love of God is...

'It is Written...

 

[StormyOne]

Yes, that is what I believe...


'It is Written...

thank you for sharing what you believe... and before it was written?

 

[BigRedBus]

k4c, in one of your posts here you began a statement with “As one begins to grow in truth and knowledge they will find that…”

To you, the journey you took along that route may have seemed like one which brought you increased knowledge and understanding. To others the same journey would feel for them to be doing exactly the opposite – to them, it would create barriers to understanding and would narrow their outlook. Indoctrination is, I think, a fair term for this process.

This thread isn’t actually about the subject of indoctrination, so I am going to start a new thread (called Indoctrination and Brainwashing?) where I will invite further discussion on this.

 

[k4c]

k4c, in one of your posts here you began a statement with “As one begins to grow in truth and knowledge they will find that…”

To you, the journey you took along that route may have seemed like one which brought you increased knowledge and understanding. To others the same journey would feel for them to be doing exactly the opposite – to them, it would create barriers to understanding and would narrow their outlook. Indoctrination is, I think, a fair term for this process.

This thread isn’t actually about the subject of indoctrination, so I am going to start a new thread (called Indoctrination and Brainwashing?) where I will invite further discussion on this.

Sorry, I still have to go by what the word of God says. God's word tells us we grow in knowledge, truth and maturity.

1 Peter 2:2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

 

[StormyOne]

Sorry, I still have to go by what the word of God says. God's word tells us we grow in knowledge, truth and maturity.

1 Peter 2:2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Peter did not write the letters attributed to him, Paul did not write the letters to the Hebrews, yet it is called "God's Word." What is wrong with that picture? Again, God did not write this, nor did he dictate it....

 

[AzA]

It's interesting that a stalactite and a stalagmite may grow in completely inverse directions to each other -- and yet both will be doing exactly what they should be doing. Wouldn't it be very Samuel Beckett to eavesdrop on two in a cave and hear the -tite say to the -mite "You're not growing in the right direction -- repent before it is too late!"

Paul's analogy in 2 Timothy 2 is instructive. The potter has many pots. Some used for dinner. Some used for flowers. Some used for garbage. All are the potter's pots, and Paul's argument is that none of the pots has veto power over its design or purpose -- or over other pots' design or purpose.

Do we grow? Of course.
My experience and observation of others in life and through scriptures is that the directions we grow and the shifts and turns we take vary widely and depend on what we most need to learn.

 

[Joe67]

Rom 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, KJV

2 Tim 2:19-26
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. KJV

Joe