An observation...

[nyj]

I live in Oklahoma City. It's what some would call the "buckle of the Bible Belt". If one looks at demographics, it is heavily Baptist with a growing Methodist population as you head towards Missouri. Total, there are approximately 100,000 Catholics.

In Oklahoma City there is one Catholic bookstore. In Oklahoma City thre are over six Christian bookstores which all advertise themselves as "non-denominational" (to attract the largest crowd). However, given the heavy Baptist population, most everything is Baptist in nature (so much so that one can easily find a copy of "The Trail of Blood").

At any rate, I happened to be in one of these bookstores today (not the Catholic one) cause I'm a sucker for a cute book with a nice spine and cover However, I had not been to this particular store in a long time (they've changed names and decor).

Now, I'm going to generalize here for a minute, but when it comes to anti-Catholicism, Baptists take the cake. Almost every "evangelization mission" that targets Catholics is run by Baptists. Just about every anti-Catholic I know who publishes their work are Baptists (with notable exceptions). And, according to them, one of their biggest "problems" with Catholicism is our supposed "worship of idols".

So, I walk into this bookstore today, which clearly has a heavy Baptist clientle and what do I see? Tons of stuff, and I mean tons of stuff. There are Max Lucado pictures (and others by other artists) of Jesus in various poses, from His crucifixion to His resurrection. However, the crucifixion ones are interesting because it appears that as long as it's on canvas, it's ok to portray Jesus crucified. Then there are the Jesus bumperstickers, the Jesus windchimes (yes, windchimes), Jesus keychains, Jesus bookmarks, Jesus coffeecups, Jesus travel mugs... you name it, it's got Jesus on it. Which, sort of seemed a little odd to me. Why is it, when Catholics wish to portray Jesus, events in His life, and the people He knew and who worshiped Him... it's idolatry, but placing Him on a coffee cup is a'ok?

I smell a double standard...


All he needed was PR, a million box of business cards,
Careful image consultation, Securing reputation.

A clever market plan, He didn't understand,
That's all it really takes, He could have played for higher stakes...

Now... Somehow... We've gone wrong

This Jesus thing, it's a smash hit
It's packaged right
All stocks have split, it's a smash hit
It's gone worldwide

Join His name to any cause, Drop His name to get applause,
They never get enough, Nothing here to be ashamed of.

Those ever loyal fans, They wanna get their hands,
On His newest merchandising, Ignoring overpricing...

Now... Oh wow... We've gone wrong...

-Smash Hit All Star United


If anyone has lost Jesus in the details, it's not the Catholics, let me tell you that.

 

[Wolseley]

Couple of observations; number one, I used to live in Grand Rapids, Michigan, which has more Dutch Christian Reformed people than any other spot on the surface of the planet. They're good people, by and large; heavily Calvinist, maybe a bit too legalistic for my tatse, but hey. In fact, G.R., MI, is the headquarters of the worldwide Christian Reformed Church.

In G.R. and environs, there are probably two dozen Evangelical bookstores; there is Zondervan, Baker Book House, Kregel's bookstore, and Crosier Christian Supply, each with several outlets, then there are the church bookstores, such as the one affiliated with Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, and then there are the independants.

In Grand Rapids, there is one---one---Catholic bookstore. For a while there were three, but one sold out within a year, and the other was only in business for maybe six years or so, and was basically a catalog service store. (I know the gal who ran this store quite well---she was one of the witnesses at my wedding. ) In recent years, this one survivor has branched off and opened a second bookstore up north, in a tourist town on Lake Michigan; I worked as the manager of this store a few years ago. They also opened up a church-goods store in Grand Rapids, where they sell vestments, candles, clerical clothing, incense, etc.

So I know what you mean about the uneven distribution. But West Michigan is heavily Protestant, so it's understandable. If these same stores were in someplace like Boston, you probably couldn't keep them stocked.

The second observation is, I also used to be dismayed by the amount of junk that we had for sale in the store I worked in. Bumper stickers, angel pins, crummy plastic statues, polished rocks, and virtually everything else that could have a Bible verse or a spiffy saying or a WWJD stamped on it was offered, and all of it was cheap mass-produced garbage that came from factories in Taiwan.

Even more disturbing was the fact that much of the higher-quality stuff (baptismal plaques, ceramic figurines, framed pictures, etc.,) were made in the People's Republic of China, a viciously-anti-Christian Communist country that persecutes Catholics for being loyal to the Pope instead of the ghost of Mao Tse-Tung. (Most of the higher-quality statues were made in Italy, as were the higher-quality jewelry items like medals and crucifixes and rosaries.)

Sometimes it used to depress me to see the Christian Faith commercialized to that extent; it was like some sort of religious carnival where Christianity was up for sale for the highest price.

 

[Avila]

I guess I feel pretty fortunate about where I live. Not too far up the road from us is the world headquarters of the Church of God (Anderson, IN). So, the population is heavily Church of God - at last count I think there were 14 or 15 Churches of God in the one small town. Even Indianapolis doesn't have that many Churches of God, AFAIK! Even so, there is a small (but nice) Catholic bookstore up there, and down here, there are 2 within a 10-15 minute drive from my house. There is at least one more located downtown that caters to a Catholic/Anglican audience - and a Russian Orthodox bookstore run by a tiny Orthodox Mother. Maybe it is because the town is larger, but it is nice. And, in our area, the demographic is largely Catholic. The 3 parishes in our immediate area serve about 10,000 families (give or take a thousand).

In my hometown, however, a Catholic has to drive a good 30 minutes to get to a Catholic parish. It is heavily Baptist/Methodist, although the Catholics are quite prominent. Down there, there are pockets too. Just 40 minutes east is a huge Catholic area. I've mentioned it before - with the monastery/seminary, the convent/girl's school, and the shrine to Our Lady of Monte Cassino. It's just interesting to see the demographics.

BTW, nyj, it is an interesting point you raise. My mother says that one of the reasons why she worries about my faith is because "Catholics rely too heavily on tradition". However, she is being hypocritical. She has gotten into any/everything Jewish & is studying up on Jewish tradition (from a former Catholic nun who turned Protestant and discovered her Jewish roots. ). It seems that as long as it isn't Catholic tradition, and it's from a former Catholic (since, you know, we're lost...) it's okay...

 

[Anise]

Finding a really good Catholic bookstore is exceedingly difficult. You can find the ones with lots of first communion gifts easily enough, but the ones with a good selection of BOOKS is hard. I have been known to drive great distances to get to one. About the same time I found a really good one, I got the internet. It figures.

But if you are ever in Stillwater MN, check out the bookstore they have in an old church there. The best I have found! (used books, not new, and no first communion gifts, just theology, history, etc.)

 

[VOW]

You gotta poke around!! Here in the "heart" of Catholic Country (LOL, California!) you can find some stores that have a nice blend for all Christians. There is a little "hole-in-the-wall" store that is called "St Francis" so it's pretty much ALL Catholic stuff. I love the place. Everything is filmed with dust, you can find goodies that people haven't used in YEARS, and there's even a USED BOOK area.

The biggest Bible store around here is Berean. We had to go there to buy a "Family Bible" when my nephew got married, nobody around here carries the large Bibles, and trying to find a CATHOLIC Family Bible was like pulling teeth. Berean has a "token Catholic" inventory, a few Rosaries, maybe a book or two. But if you wander into the Apologetics section (which I used extensively when I was studying Mormonism) you have to turn a blind eye to the Catholic-evangelism goods.

They also carry a PLETHORA of "End Times" propoganda.

Hmmm...I think after payday I'm going to visit St Francis store. Haven't been there in a while!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Anise]

VOW,

Of course CA is the heart of Catholic country. I used to live in Santa Barbara and in my family's parlance it is "God's country"! What a beautiful area! But I am consoled here in the midwest with all my spring bulbs right now.

I believe you about having a good bookstore near you in CA. Santa Barbara had some good bookstores, too. But I never looked there for a Catholic one because my parish (St. Raphael) at the time had a great library. Goin' to the library sure saves the pocketbook!

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Even more disturbing was the fact that much of the higher-quality stuff (baptismal plaques, ceramic figurines, framed pictures, etc.,) were made in the People's Republic of China, a viciously-anti-Christian Communist country that persecutes Catholics for being loyal to the Pope instead of the ghost of Mao Tse-Tung.

I just thought I'd share something: In China, millions of Christians are heavily persecuted (both protestants and Catholics). But the amount of growth in both groups are incredible! The Church seems to flourish under persecution. Supposedly there are 2000 new believers every HOUR!! Unfortunately 1 billion people is an incredibly large number.

Anyway, I honestly get some impression that Catholics in China have it much worse than protestants. Anyone heard of the Three Self Patriotic movement in China? It's a group run by the government in China that's trying to control what goes on in the churches. Rather than having churches go underground, the government tried to set up some sort of compromise by setting up a Three Self Patriotic church. Fortunately some of these government run churches are very Christ-centered, since some provinces don't care much about what goes on in the church, as long as it's being 'watched'. The government primarily looks at 'church' as a political threat (i.e. when people gather underground it looks like some sort of conspiracy against the government).

But for the most part the government run churches have a watered down gospel. The government primarily set up 2 particular government run churches (protestants and Catholics). As a result, Catholics do not attend these churches since it's not part of the Roman Catholic church and so they have it really bad. I honestly can't wait to see Asia fully opened to the gospel (particularly China and North Korea).

By the way, I'll be studying in China for the entire month of June. Can someone lift a prayer for me? I want to somehow share the gospel to others (despite the fact it's illegal to do so)

God bless

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW
You gotta poke around!! Here in the "heart" of Catholic Country (LOL, California!) you can find some stores that have a nice blend for all Christians. There is a little "hole-in-the-wall" store that is called "St Francis" so it's pretty much ALL Catholic stuff. I love the place. Everything is filmed with dust, you can find goodies that people haven't used in YEARS, and there's even a USED BOOK area.

The biggest Bible store around here is Berean. We had to go there to buy a "Family Bible" when my nephew got married, nobody around here carries the large Bibles, and trying to find a CATHOLIC Family Bible was like pulling teeth. Berean has a "token Catholic" inventory, a few Rosaries, maybe a book or two. But if you wander into the Apologetics section (which I used extensively when I was studying Mormonism) you have to turn a blind eye to the Catholic-evangelism goods.

They also carry a PLETHORA of "End Times" propoganda.

Hmmm...I think after payday I'm going to visit St Francis store. Haven't been there in a while!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

I guess I'm a bit fortunate I'm in New Jersey and there happens to be a Catholic bookstore not too far from me. Actually it's a bit hard for me to find a decent Christian bookstore in New Jersey. Maybe it's just my location. There's plenty of Christians around me, but not that many bookstores (maybe I just don't know about them).

Plus I'm about 3 hrs from Maryland. To my knowledge MD was the first 'Catholic' colony among the 13 colonies in American history =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Plus I'm about 3 hrs from Maryland. To my knowledge MD was the first 'Catholic' colony among the 13 colonies in American history =)
[/B]

You got that right. Maryland = Mary Land.

The colony was founded by the Jesuits on March 25, 1634 under the auspices of Cecilius Calvert the Second Lord Baltimore.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09755b.htm

Of course, now the Catholics are going to be criticized for not naming it Jesusland.

 

[Anise]

To avoid the "jesusland" objection, let us note that the Mary in question is not THE Mary. Lord Baltimore named it after the wife of King Charles1, so they say, not the Virgin.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by nyj


You got that right. Maryland = Mary Land.

The colony was founded by the Jesuits on March 25, 1634 under the auspices of Cecilius Calvert the Second Lord Baltimore.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09755b.htm

Of course, now the Catholics are going to be criticized for not naming it Jesusland.

Maryland? Jesusland? LOL!! hahah

God bless!

-Jason

 

[PrinceJeff]

Now, I'm going to generalize here for a minute, but when it comes to anti-Catholicism, Baptists take the cake.

I don't take cake. Too many calories.

Almost every "evangelization mission" that targets Catholics is run by Baptists. Just about every anti-Catholic I know who publishes their work are Baptists (with notable exceptions). And, according to them, one of their biggest "problems" with Catholicism is our supposed "worship of idols".

True, there are SOME Baptists (a large number) that are hell-bent on "saving Catholics, yada yada". Me, I am a Baptist and quite happy, but hey we will find out one day who did it right, correct?

So, I walk into this bookstore today, which clearly has a heavy Baptist clientle and what do I see? Tons of stuff, and I mean tons of stuff. There are Max Lucado pictures (and others by other artists) of Jesus in various poses, from His crucifixion to His resurrection. However, the crucifixion ones are interesting because it appears that as long as it's on canvas, it's ok to portray Jesus crucified. Then there are the Jesus bumperstickers, the Jesus windchimes (yes, windchimes), Jesus keychains, Jesus bookmarks, Jesus coffeecups, Jesus travel mugs... you name it, it's got Jesus on it. Which, sort of seemed a little odd to me. Why is it, when Catholics wish to portray Jesus, events in His life, and the people He knew and who worshiped Him... it's idolatry, but placing Him on a coffee cup is a'ok?

I smell a double standard...

Don't forget the WWJD stuff and "She said yes". A nice Chad Brock song, but a traumatic cash cow for Cassie Bernall's martyrdom. Tragic isn't it?

I know there are those of all denoms who have problems, but I am not like that, even though I am one of them thar Baptist folk.

Seriously, generalization is hard to swallow for me. I understand how you feel NYJ, but remember folks like me when you say what you say. Too much to ask?

Jeff

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by PrinceJeff

Seriously, generalization is hard to swallow for me. I understand how you feel NYJ, but remember folks like me when you say what you say. Too much to ask?

I agree with you, Jeff. I have 2 little nieces that visit me regularly, and they are Catholic. I hope my little nieces will learn from me that Baptists are not out to destroy their faith. But, eventually, I'm sure they will hear this kind of talk about Baptists as they grow older and begin to listen to people talk bad about Baptists. Will they then reject me because I am Baptist?

Aren't we supposed to love one another?

I have come to this forum so I can learn about the Catholic Church, and help me to be a better aunt to my Catholic nieces. So I hope there are some Catholics here who will not immediately reject me because I am Baptist.

But I would like to ask a question: This week, one of my nieces had her first Communion, and I was not invited. Can someone tell me why? Is it because I am Baptist? I attended her Baptism when she was a baby, so I don't understand why I couldn't attend her first Communion. That hurts. I see her and her sister every other weekend, so they are a part of my life. I get invited to other functions, like softball games.

 

[Avila]

Auntie - perhaps her parents didn't want to offend you? I don't know... We didn't invite my parents to the baby's baptism because they don't agree (almost vehemently so) & we didn't want to start another "issue" over faith differences.

 

[Miss Shelby]

But I would like to ask a question: This week, one of my nieces had her first Communion, and I was not invited. Can someone tell me why?

Is it a possibility that it could have been an oversight? My brother didn't invite one my cousins to his wedding (accidentally)--and my cousin was so ticked that he didn't speak to my brother for 2 years.. and no one knew why.

Why not just ask?

Michelle

 

[VOW]

To Auntie:

When my son made his First Communion, the Church only gave us a few seats. We have a VERY large congregation, and in order to accommodate all the children making their First Communion, there was assigned seating.

Some families have a little gathering afterwards, but that depends on the local customs. I know we've had friends who throw a big bash and the kids get all kinds of presents. I found that terribly inappropriate, and if anyone wanted to give my children a gift, I requested that it be faith-related.

I'd just chalk it up to oversight, and give your niece a nice "First Communion" card and wish her God's Blessings.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by VOW
To Auntie:
When my son made his First Communion, the Church only gave us a few seats. We have a VERY large congregation, and in order to accommodate all the children making their First Communion, there was assigned seating.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

I think this might have been the reason, VOW. Thank you, I didn't even think of it. My sister-in-law had family from other States come to the Communion, so she was probably only allowed a few seats and didn't have any left. My sister-in-law's church is very beautiful, but very small. And it is the only Catholic church in town. Any time I have ever passed by the church during a service, it is packed, the parking lot is full and running over. They really need to build another church, or expand this one. They built some extra buildings recently, but the main church building is still very small.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I had come to the conclusion that I wasn't invited because the service was a "Catholic Members Only" service, "No Baptists Allowed".

Aren't some Catholic services just for members only?

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Aren't some Catholic services just for members only?

None that I am aware of. The doors of the Church are always open to everyone.

 

[Auntie]

Thanks, nyj.

I have a lot to learn.

 

[VOW]

To Auntie:

You are most welcome at any Catholic service!

You may not receive Communion, but that is not intended to be a slight to you in any way. Some folks are violently offended they may not receive Catholic Communion, and will argue a fence post into toothpicks over it!

It has to do with the teachings of the Church, and exactly what Communion means. You mentioned your niece making her First Communion. That means she had to attend special classes to learn about this very important, very precious sacrament. And if you have any questions about Catholic Communion, folks here on the board will be happy to answer them.


Peace be with you,
~VOW