An Introduction

[ej]

I see you don't understand. We are united. Anyone that has the true gospel is my brother and sister in Christ. It is the gospel. Let me repeat. It is the gospel that binds us together--all of the other stuff is insignificant.

Any member of any church that knows that Jesus paid for ALL of our sins--that we can do nothing to pay for any of them--that Jesus did it all--that His sacrifice was totally sufficient to save us without any effort on our part has the true gospel and we are united in the one body of the church with Christ as our head.

Are you aware that when Martin Luther translated the Bible into German, he made lots of changes? One change was to remove books of the Bible which supported the doctrine of the Universal Church.

He also re-worded the Gospels (these correlate with and refer to the books he removed). This is a reason why I disagree with your first paragraph.

Anyway... Luther altered the phrase 'saved by faith' to 'saved by faith alone.' Even so, he left the part telling us that true faith bears fruits. This is a reason why I disagree with your second paragraph.

The Gospels also tell us that Jesus is the rock upon which our faith is based. Peter is the rock upon which our church is based. This is another reason why I disagree with your second paragraph.

Peace be with you
Your sister in Christ
Emma

 

[BAChristian]

Let's remember that the door swings both ways here.

Emmajane, I can appreciate your post -- however, remember, if you walk into this thread and declare that which is wrong with Protestanism, you're just asking for it.

This is especially true when you can tell that the OP is, what I would consider, a fundy, and most likely, no matter what you say, he's not going to change. He wants to have a good time in fellowship with others who believe the way he does. He's not asking for anyone to "convert" him, with what maybe he might consider, "false doctrine", "heresy", or the like...

So my recommendation is that, while your intentions may be good, let's not post loaded comments.

As always emmajane, I do really like your posts. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I felt that, in this particular time of my life, I needed to say this -- mostly because I don't feel that pushing doctrine or saying things that you know, with common sense, is going to get huge, never-ending debates a'going helps any.

In effect, I'm saying all of this, because I openly post about how I can't stand Christians who think they have to shove doctrine down people's throats -- many who otherwise, in person, wouldn't do it. I know they wouldn't...they think they are hiding behind a shroud of anonymity.

In my current profession, it's my job to dispel the myth of anonymity...

So, as a guideline (man I'm feeling like a mod right now...LOL), if you're not going to say it in person, don't do it here.

That goes for me too, but I'm 6', 250lbs, I guarantee you I'd say all of this right in front of you...(and probably waving my Douay-Rheims Bible around too!!)

LOL

Alright...game on...

 

[ej]

Emmajane, I can appreciate your post -- however, remember, if you walk into this thread and declare that which is wrong with Protestanism, you're just asking for it.

I intentionally backed up the opinion of the OP - that 'lukewarm' Christianity comes from denominational differences. I agree with that.

This is especially true when you can tell that the OP is, what I would consider, a fundy, and most likely, no matter what you say, he's not going to change. He wants to have a good time in fellowship with others who believe the way he does. He's not asking for anyone to "convert" him, with what maybe he might consider, "false doctrine", "heresy", or the like...

Then he should base his 'fundamentalism' on scripture, not on personal interpretation! This way, the world's Christians will have fellowship with each other - no problem.

As always emmajane, I do really like your posts. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I felt that, in this particular time of my life, I needed to say this -- mostly because I don't feel that pushing doctrine or saying things that you know, with common sense, is going to get huge, never-ending debates a'going helps any.

Understand what you're saying, but this has no relevance to this thread - I have pushed no doctrine, only scripture.

In effect, I'm saying all of this, because I openly post about how I can't stand Christians who think they have to shove doctrine down people's throats -- many who otherwise, in person, wouldn't do it. I know they wouldn't...they think they are hiding behind a shroud of anonymity.

I agree. If someone has to 'shove,' then perhaps their message is not worth hearing. My disagreement with Terri here is that she is claiming to be governed by the Gospel, but she contradicts the gospel directly. This is baffling to me.

In my current profession, it's my job to dispel the myth of anonymity...

I think most people here know what I do for a living

So, as a guideline (man I'm feeling like a mod right now...LOL), if you're not going to say it in person, don't do it here.

I totally agree. Excellent point.

That goes for me too, but I'm 6', 250lbs, I guarantee you I'd say all of this right in front of you...(and probably waving my Douay-Rheims Bible around too!!)

Physical threats don't scare me. I can run very fast

 

[BAChristian]

Physical threats don't scare me. I can run very fast

Yeah, but you can't stop a Bible that's been thrown at ya from about arm's length away!!

 

[ej]

Yeah, but you can't stop a Bible that's been thrown at ya from about arm's length away!!

LOL...

(I could try ducking... )

 

[BAChristian]

LOL...

(I could try ducking... )

LOL, nevermind me. I'm just a bible-thumpin' candidate!

(Ya like my new tag?)

 

[Terri]

I intentionally backed up the opinion of the OP - that 'lukewarm' Christianity comes from denominational differences. I agree with that.[

Still mocking I see.

My disagreement with Terri here is that she is claiming to be governed by the Gospel, but she contradicts the gospel directly. This is baffling to me.

That is a lie. I have in no way contradicted the true gospel.

 

[ej]

I usually have some great chats in this forum. I don't come to Evangelise, but merely to discuss truth. If you refute my statements with insults rather than discussion, I'll go elsewhere, but I'll keep you in my prayers

*emma leaves the Protestant room

 

[Terri]

I usually have some great chats in this forum. I don't come to Evangelise, but merely to discuss truth. If you refute my statements with insults rather than discussion, I'll go elsewhere, but I'll keep you in my prayers

*emma leaves the Protestant room

Your discussing of your version of the truth is mocking my faith. To come into this area and do that shows a great lack of respect for me and my faith.

If you want to discuss how wrong my faith is please take it to the IDD forum and we will have no problem.

 

[Lanakila]

Back to the OP: In my experience as a fundie, fundies only get along real well and have fellowship with those who agree on absolutely everything. Not just doctrine, but Bible version, personal convictions (women wearing pants ect) and even church liturgy (yes Baptist have a liturgy, they just deny it). Fundie's need to realise that the Body of Christ includes people that are very different from them. That we are called to love those people dispite the differences (as brothers).

My hubby and I have recently decided we aren't fundies anymore because of their exclusivity. They exclude everyone not exactly like them, and most have superior attitudes about it too. That doesn't mean we have abandoned the faith, for those of you worried about me, LOL.

 

[Terri]

Back to the OP: In my experience as a fundie, fundies only get along real well and have fellowship with those who agree on absolutely everything. Not just doctrine, but Bible version, personal convictions (women wearing pants ect) and even church liturgy (yes Baptist have a liturgy, they just deny it). Fundie's need to realise that the Body of Christ includes people that are very different from them. That we are called to love those people dispite the differences (as brothers).

My hubby and I have recently decided we aren't fundies anymore because of their exclusivity. They exclude everyone not exactly like them, and most have superior attitudes about it too. That doesn't mean we have abandoned the faith, for those of you worried about me, LOL.

Wow, you sure seem to stereotype people.

I am a fundy if by fundy you mean I believe in the inerrant Word of God.

The only doctrine one has to have to be my brother is a belief in the Gospel that says Jesus paid for ALL of our sins (not just some of them).

I don't care what Bible version you use--I use many different ones.

I don't care if you wear pants--as long as you don't wear them on your head.

Could you reveal what this liturgy in the Baptist church consists of since even though I was baptised in the Baptist church I never saw or heard it.

I really don't see any problem with people wanting to fellowship with people that have similar beliefs.

While having a superior attitude is not good I assure you it has been know to happen among people who aren't fundies.

To declare you are not a fundy because of their exclusivity seems a bit--well exclusive to me. I guess none of us are perfect.

 

[JEREMY O'ROURKE]

I agree with you for the most part. I am Pentecostal and not fundamentalist but I dont agree with much of what I am seeing in the name of ecumenicalism. It just dont sit well with my spirit. Some things should never be compromised.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

God bless ecumenicalism. Isn't that the whole point of this website? Christians getting along with other Christians? Catholics and Protestants coming together to unite and proclaim: Jesus Christ is Lord!

 

[Terri]

I agree with you for the most part. I am Pentecostal and not fundamentalist but I dont agree with much of what I am seeing in the name of ecumenicalism. It just dont sit well with my spirit. Some things should never be compromised.

Hi Jeremy!

I was wondering what your definition of a fundamentalist would be? It seem everyone has a different definition.

I thought it was just someone who believed the Bible but it seems that many people see it as just a catch-all term for groups that they disagree with.

I have heard Pentecostals refered to as fundamentalist. I guess I thought they were since they believe the Bible.

 

[Lanakila]

On this board fundie means what you have said Terri. But, I went to a Baptist College, extremely legalistic Baptist college, that were proud of their fundamenalism. Many Pastors in that group of Baptists (they reject denominationalism because they are sooooooooooo independent) call themselves fighting fundamentalists. But they don't fight against sin in their own churches, or even the devil, but against each other. I saw little love in that group, and that is part of why we are leaving. By exclusivity I mean that they don't fellowship with Christians who disagree with them on anything from how and when to Baptise, to which version of the Bible to read. Obviously you haven't run into very many of these types or you would know exactly what I am talking about.

Liturgy is just the order of worship. Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglicans have a very formal liturgy, and Pentecostals and Baptists have a very informal liturgy, but they have one none the less. If you have visited churches with a different order of worship then your home church, then you would recognise the differences. We are used to a certain liturgy in our own chuch, and because its informal we call it order of worship instead of liturgy.

 

[Terri]

On this board fundie means what you have said Terri. But, I went to a Baptist College, extremely legalistic Baptist college, that were proud of their fundamenalism. Many Pastors in that group of Baptists (they reject denominationalism because they are sooooooooooo independent) call themselves fighting fundamentalists. But they don't fight against sin in their own churches, or even the devil, but against each other. I saw little love in that group, and that is part of why we are leaving. By exclusivity I mean that they don't fellowship with Christians who disagree with them on anything from how and when to Baptise, to which version of the Bible to read. Obviously you haven't run into very many of these types or you would know exactly what I am talking about.

Liturgy is just the order of worship. Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglicans have a very formal liturgy, and Pentecostals and Baptists have a very informal liturgy, but they have one none the less. If you have visited churches with a different order of worship then your home church, then you would recognise the differences. We are used to a certain liturgy in our own chuch, and because its informal we call it order of worship instead of liturgy.

Well Lanakila I have led a very sheltered life--I haven't run into any people that are as you describe. Now, I have run into the occasional King James Only person on a couple of forums including this one. I believe that just comes from fear that other versions have somehow changed God's Word and they will be deceived. They don't seem to realize that the Holy Spirit can lead you into understanding in all of the legit versions. I imagine the group you are talking about has this same spirit of fear--we should pray for them that God will strengthen them so they can get over their fear. And, there was my friend in school that didn't believe in cutting her hair or wearing make-up. We were very good friends even though I suppose I was a Jezabel to her for wearing make-up. She never seemed to judge me though.

I must say it is very confusing when you say fundamentalism just means that you believe the Bible, but them you use it in what appears to be a derogatory way to describe legalistic people.

Now if you just called them legalistic I would understand that! I don't like legalism!! But, it doesn't seem fair to lump me into their group with the term fundamentalist.

Now I again think that legalism comes from fear or perhaps self-righteousness. Unfortunately self-righeousness can be a quite serious problem in my view because it says perhaps they don't understand the gospel as well as they should and don't realize that any righteousness they have comes from God, not from them; that our righteousness comes from believing the Gospel, not from what rituals we do in what particular order. Truthfully, when I see people that are legalistic I do wonder if they are not trying to work their way into heaven and haven't entered into God's rest (belief in Christ's FINISHED work on the cross) as we are told to do.

I suppose if you consider "Shall we pray", and "Will you please turn in your hymnal to hymn number 326" as liturgy then I guess most Baptist churches would have one. That seems to be a very broad definition of liturgy. Order of worship does seem a more reasonable description.

The church I was Baptised in wasn't legalistic at all. Every week when they did the alter call they would play the hymn "Just As I Am" (guess that would mean it was part of the liturgy by your definition ). They seem to really mean it. I was not given any rules to follow. I thank God that they didn't get me all bound up in legalism so as Gal 2:5 says: so that the truth of the gospel might remain with me.

 

[JEREMY O'ROURKE]

Terri what I have always heard about fundementalists is that they were an extremely strict people that believe King James version only and that everyone that did not see things there way were condemned to hell. I knew this guy who was supposed to be a fundamentalist and he believed that every denomination that believed one thing different than him was doomed with no hope. If a fundamentalist is just someone who believes the Bible for what it is the holy word of God then count me in as one. This person who I knew I went to Church with him one time and the service was very much like a Baptist service but The preacher preached so strictly that any one who owned a Bibl that was not KJV was not Gods child and even said this to me and tried to argue about doctrine when I told him I was Pentecostal. I just associated this with fundementalism. I have been around many Baptist and I do know that they are not this way. Most have alot of Love for people. Baptist are also a step or two ahead of Pentecostals when it comes to evangelizing and winning souls. I am not against all ecumenicalism but I am when it compromises truth that remain the truth forever.