The god of Judaism is the devil. The Jew will not be recognized by God as one of His chosen people until he abandons his demonic religion and returns to the faith of his fathers--the faith which embraces Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
Chilton, David (1984), The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation.
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An interesting quote.
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Well, of course it is sick. It was written by a man who was clearly sick in the head.
He's dead now, thank God. But his disciples live on, and what he has written here, is only the logical conclusion of what they believe.
I would be interested to hear what they have to say about this quote.
He's dead now, thank God. But his disciples live on, and what he has written here, is only the logical conclusion of what they believe.
I would be interested to hear what they have to say about this quote.
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Evangelion, The quote (page 127 in his book) may appear sick when read outside of the context. However david is then commenting on the letter to the church of Philadelphia. In that letter, God says... I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but lie - behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
The point being made here is that it is possible to claim to be jewish yet not truly be a Jew. See Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8, Galatians 3:6,7,29.
For even stronger language go to John chapter 8 where Jesus tells the Pharisees (who were 'elite' Jews) that there Father was the Devil!
I'm not neccesarily condoning the language used in David's commentary, just that I can understand how he arrived there. And that the Bible itself uses rather harsh language at times.
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Hello Data Guy. Thankyou for responding.
I think we're about to find that it looks just as sick within the context, as it does out of it.
The quote does not seem to fit this context very well. I would like to see a copy/paste which covers a great deal of room on either side of the quote, please.
I agree that it is possible to claim to be Jewish, yet not truly be a Jew. But Chilton does not appear to be saying this at all.
What he says is this:
References to the Philadelphian ecclesia are notable by absence.
...by which he clearly does not mean the Father (i.e. God), and so your point is irrelevant.
Indeed, if he had been saying what you claim, he would have been guilty of blasphemy.
Agreed. You're simply trying to find some other way of justifying it.
Well, that scares me, and speaks volumes about you.
...but not in the way that Chilton has done.
I think we're about to find that it looks just as sick within the context, as it does out of it.
The quote does not seem to fit this context very well. I would like to see a copy/paste which covers a great deal of room on either side of the quote, please.
I agree that it is possible to claim to be Jewish, yet not truly be a Jew. But Chilton does not appear to be saying this at all.
What he says is this:
The god of Judaism is the devil. The Jew will not be recognized by God as one of His chosen people until he abandons his demonic religion and returns to the faith of his fathers--the faith which embraces Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
References to the Philadelphian ecclesia are notable by absence.
...by which he clearly does not mean the Father (i.e. God), and so your point is irrelevant.
Indeed, if he had been saying what you claim, he would have been guilty of blasphemy.
Agreed. You're simply trying to find some other way of justifying it.
Well, that scares me, and speaks volumes about you.
...but not in the way that Chilton has done.
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We must also keep in mind the fact that Chilton was a Theonomic Reconstructivist.
His theology cannot be divorced from that context.
His theology cannot be divorced from that context.
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Evangelion, at risk of copywrite laws... a fuller quote:
Therefore, Iwill cause those of the synagogues of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but lie - behold, I will make then to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. Again the apostate Jews are revealed in their true identity: the synagogue of Satan (cf. 2:9). Again there is no such thing as "orthodox" Judaism; there is no such thing as a genuine belief in the Old Testament that is consistent with a rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and god. those who do not believe in christ do not believe in the Old Testament either. The god of Judaism is the devil. The Jew will not be recognized by God as one of the chosenpeople until he abandons his demonic religion and returns to the faith of his fathers - the faith which embraces Jesus Christ and His gospel. When Christ-rejecting Jews claim to follow in the footsteps fo Abraham, Jesus says, they lie. ...
re: Revelation 3:8,9 pg. 127
I'm glad you agree on this point (BTW, I would never call you sick, even if you didn't).
Please note the use of a little 'g' in "the god of Judaism'. He is contrasting the true heart of the OT and the law - which always leads to Christ - vs. Judaism, a religion which opposes the Messiah yet claims God as their Father. Judaism includes countless man-made traditions and commandments, many of which explicitly contradict the scriptures. The commandments are often held in higher esteem than the scriptures themself.
Oops - sorry about the "F" in 'father'. My point is still quite relevant, though. The Pharisees claimed Abraham (and therefore God) as their Father. But Jesus countered with, "your father is the Devil".
I doubt that David was attaking Jews individually. He was placing Judaism (salvation without Jesus) as an enemy to the cross.
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Wow. The expanded quote only makes it worse.
I'll be back later to address the rest of Chilton's ghastly comments.
I'll be back later to address the rest of Chilton's ghastly comments.
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Originally posted by Evangelion
We must also keep in mind the fact that Chilton was a Theonomic Reconstructivist.
His theology cannot be divorced from that context.
Evangelion, We all have our understanding 'tainted' by our background. I am not a Theonomic Reconstructionist but I can still follow his reasoning(s).
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Data Guy -
There's no need to worry. This is only a tiny portion of the overall text, and you're not claiming it as your own.
Yes, there is such a thing as "orthodox Judaism", and it is OT Judaism.
That is certainly true. But then, so too is the corollory. There is no such thing as a genuine belief in the OT that is inconsistent with OT Judaism and all that it taught.
Trinitarianism is clearly inconsistent with OT Judaism.
True.
False. The God of Judaism - regardless of what form it takes - is the God of Israel.
False. The Jews are still the chosen people. Their status as "the chosen people" does not change.
Whether or not those chosen people will be saved, is another matter entirely - and yes, it requires their acceptance of Christ.
No, they do not lie - they only speak what they believe to be the truth.
We all do.
*snip*
I noticed it alright. That's one of the first things which concerned me.
Judaism is not "a religion which opposes the Mesisah yet claims God as their Father." Judaism is the religion of the OT.
Modern Judaism is quite another story. But even modern Judaism cannot rightly be said to worship a god who is no God. Modern Judaism worships the God Who made heaven and earth and all things therein. Modern Judaism worships the God of OT Judaism.
This is certainly true of modern Judaism. So Chilton should have said "modern Judaism."
*snip*
True. But that's not what Chilton is saying.
I'm still not convinced.
He was making insupportable generalisations about Judaism. This is indenfensible.
There's no need to worry. This is only a tiny portion of the overall text, and you're not claiming it as your own.
Yes, there is such a thing as "orthodox Judaism", and it is OT Judaism.
That is certainly true. But then, so too is the corollory. There is no such thing as a genuine belief in the OT that is inconsistent with OT Judaism and all that it taught.
Trinitarianism is clearly inconsistent with OT Judaism.
True.
False. The God of Judaism - regardless of what form it takes - is the God of Israel.
False. The Jews are still the chosen people. Their status as "the chosen people" does not change.
Whether or not those chosen people will be saved, is another matter entirely - and yes, it requires their acceptance of Christ.
No, they do not lie - they only speak what they believe to be the truth.
We all do.
*snip*
I noticed it alright. That's one of the first things which concerned me.
Judaism is not "a religion which opposes the Mesisah yet claims God as their Father." Judaism is the religion of the OT.
Modern Judaism is quite another story. But even modern Judaism cannot rightly be said to worship a god who is no God. Modern Judaism worships the God Who made heaven and earth and all things therein. Modern Judaism worships the God of OT Judaism.
This is certainly true of modern Judaism. So Chilton should have said "modern Judaism."
*snip*
True. But that's not what Chilton is saying.
I'm still not convinced.
He was making insupportable generalisations about Judaism. This is indenfensible.
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Katya -
Because it is little more than anti-Semitism in another guise.
Like so many other Theonomic Reconstructivists, Chilton was a frustrated man who dreamed of ruling his own little kingdom.
Because it is little more than anti-Semitism in another guise.
Like so many other Theonomic Reconstructivists, Chilton was a frustrated man who dreamed of ruling his own little kingdom.
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Why yes I am! Thanks for noticing
Modern Judiasm is not Mosaic Judiasm. It is the cult of Talmudic Judiasm.
AD70 made obedience to Moses impossible.
Jews today are no more Gods chosen than Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists or any of the myriad of other Christ rejecting, Gospel denying people out there.
There is no class or race of people today that are in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.
Besides, there is no verifiable "Jewish race" today anyway. The Church is the Chosen Genos, the one Holy Nation today. (1Peter 2:9)
Modern Judiasm is not Mosaic Judiasm. It is the cult of Talmudic Judiasm.
AD70 made obedience to Moses impossible.
Jews today are no more Gods chosen than Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists or any of the myriad of other Christ rejecting, Gospel denying people out there.
There is no class or race of people today that are in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.
Besides, there is no verifiable "Jewish race" today anyway. The Church is the Chosen Genos, the one Holy Nation today. (1Peter 2:9)
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Parousia -
You're welcome. (The tagline under your handle gave it away.)
True. They are worlds apart.
No, it is not a cult at all. It is simply a modern form of the oldest monotheistic religion in the entire world.
What do you mean by "obedience to Moses"? Do you mean "obedience to the Law"?
ROTFL!
Nobody said that they were!
No, the only ones who are accepted today, are those whose beliefs and practices are both apostolic and Biblical.
Yes, there is. You will find its remants all over the world - but particularly in Israel and the USA.
No, the Church is only the community of adopted sons and daughters. Without the Jews, we would have no hope of salvation.
Thou art the wild olive tree, Parousia - and the root beareth thee. Boast not against the branches, nor be wise in your own conceit... lest thou be cut off.
You're welcome. (The tagline under your handle gave it away.)
True. They are worlds apart.
No, it is not a cult at all. It is simply a modern form of the oldest monotheistic religion in the entire world.
What do you mean by "obedience to Moses"? Do you mean "obedience to the Law"?
ROTFL!
Nobody said that they were!
No, the only ones who are accepted today, are those whose beliefs and practices are both apostolic and Biblical.
Yes, there is. You will find its remants all over the world - but particularly in Israel and the USA.
No, the Church is only the community of adopted sons and daughters. Without the Jews, we would have no hope of salvation.
Thou art the wild olive tree, Parousia - and the root beareth thee. Boast not against the branches, nor be wise in your own conceit... lest thou be cut off.
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