An honest question

QvQ · Mar 14, 2023

The fact that the Scriptures have survived intact, being hand copied and subject to the intepretation of such luminaries as the Borgia Popes and warring divorced kings means there was a reverence in the Church for preserving and distributing the correct Bible to the faithful.
The clergy, the governments could be corrupt but there isn't any instance of the Gosples being changed to condone that corruption or to make something like "incest" for instance, a perogative of a pope or king.
There is always sin and corruption. Just imagine what the Bible would be if the current liberal left was allowed to make changes. That element is always there and the Bible has survived as the True Word of God.

PsaltiChrysostom · Mar 14, 2023

timothyu said:
I see you operate out of the US. Perhaps free enterprise has something to do with it there? Denominations by the same name seem to operate differently beyond the borders. I didn't want to put him on the spot by digging deep nor am I interested in church politics.. But I have found this issue of the Gospel of the Kingdom is shied away from in many denominations perhaps because it is critical of the institutions of man.

Hardly, and what do you mean by the "Gospel"? We've been preaching that since 33AD as we can directly trace our lineages back to the Apostolic era. There are a bunch of letters in the Scriptures written to churches that still exist today in Greece. The Antiochian patriarchate, Mariamite Cathedral of Damascus, is on the street called Straight, as referenced in Acts 9:11.

bling · Mar 14, 2023

timothyu said:
Yet Christianity focuses on the man and not His message of the Kingdom, a culture we are to follow that runs contrary to the culture of man.

I explained how they have Jesus today, living through mature Christians.

Jeff Saunders · Mar 15, 2023

bling said:
The Bible is not what people need; people need Jesus.
The Bible is a tool for the Christian mainly, the indwelling Holy Spirit is a much more important tool.
People need what those first 12 apostles needed, time with Christ, have Christ listen to them, have Christ answer their questions, have Christ mentor them, have Christ Love on them, have Christ show them how to live, Have Christ teach them and have Christ correct them with Love. And that is what has always been available to the nonbeliever through Christ living in and through mature Christians.

So you don’t believe that the Bible is the fourth member of the trinity? So

timothyu · Mar 15, 2023

Someone should make a three hour movie on the Bible, not dwelling on the usual characters but showing from beginning to end the warnings not to put the will of man ahead of God and then all the screwups that occurred as man disobeyed, along with a brief part where God made plans to reverse that... then back to the screwups and betrayals to the idea we are not rulers, until the final act where we get set right once and for all. Might give people a better understanding of the entire plot of the scriptures without like I said making a religion out of it. Of course we've had movies for a century based on the idea of good vs evil but only recently have the bad guys been winning.

ozso · Mar 16, 2023

Lack of availability. A limited number of people who could read. Control of the narrative.

I think also for a long time it was decided that only clergy were qualified to read and understand scripture.

PsaltiChrysostom · Mar 16, 2023

MMXX said:
Lack of availability. A limited number of people who could read. Control of the narrative.

I think also for a long time it was decided that only clergy were qualified to read and understand scripture.

I've listed the various historical sources of the illiteracy and cost of books that would be years of savings for an individual, yet you and others simply say, "Control the narrative" without any backing or historical proof. So your mind is made up despite the facts.

QvQ · Mar 16, 2023

MMXX said:
How far back to libraries go?

Late 1800's Early 1900's

There were libraries in private homes, universities after the printing press

Books were rare and prohibitively expensive before Gutenburg.

A church was lucky to own a copy as some documents were parceled out and passed around. One church might have a part of the Bible, another church another part and the parts were changed back and forth.
Very few people could read.

ozso · Mar 16, 2023

QvQ said:
Late 1800's Early 1900's

There were libraries in private homes, universities after the printing press

Books were rare and prohibitively expensive before Gutenburg.

A church was lucky to own a copy as some documents were parceled out and passed around. One church might have a part of the Bible, another church another part and the parts were changed back and forth.
Very few people could read.

All the way up until the late 1800s?

PsaltiChrysostom · Mar 16, 2023

MMXX said:
How far back to libraries go?

Historian Yahya of Antioch (d. 1066) reported that the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah (r. 996–1021) financed and established libraries open to the public, where anyone, even the simple non-specialists, could choose whatever books they wanted and have them copied by public scribes, free of charge.[6] However, as with many of his other decisions, Al-Hakim later ordered this policy to be reversed.[6]

What were ancient literacy rates?
Literacy rates in the ancient world were very low. Less than ten percent of the population would have been able to read and write, and only the wealthy were likely to receive an education.

Were even the Apostles literate? At least according to Acts, Peter and John were "unschooled" and likely were illiterate.
Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

This is why Mark is attributed to be Peter's scribe. Papias (60-130 AD) wrote, "And the elder used to say this, Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord."

So the Scriptures were commanded to be copied and then read aloud by Paul, 1Th 5:27 “I adjure you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brethren”.

Hence, the semi-clerical position of Reader was created so that someone would be assigned to read the Scriptures aloud to the congregation.

bling · Mar 16, 2023

Jeff Saunders said:
So you don’t believe that the Bible is the fourth member of the trinity? So

Not heard that one.

Jeff Saunders · Mar 16, 2023

bling said:
Not heard that one.

I was being sarcastic. I believe that far too many people who call themselves Christians think that the Bible is equal to God. I have even seen people who think we will still read the Bible in heaven , which is absurd. I even believe that many have made the Bible into an idol which is forbidden for us.

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2023

PsaltiChrysostom said:
Historian Yahya of Antioch (d. 1066) reported that the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah (r. 996–1021) financed and established libraries open to the public, where anyone, even the simple non-specialists, could choose whatever books they wanted and have them copied by public scribes, free of charge.[6] However, as with many of his other decisions, Al-Hakim later ordered this policy to be reversed.[6]
What were ancient literacy rates?
Literacy rates in the ancient world were very low. Less than ten percent of the population would have been able to read and write, and only the wealthy were likely to receive an education.
Were even the Apostles literate? At least according to Acts, Peter and John were "unschooled" and likely were illiterate.
Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.
This is why Mark is attributed to be Peter's scribe. Papias (60-130 AD) wrote, "And the elder used to say this, Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord."
So the Scriptures were commanded to be copied and then read aloud by Paul, 1Th 5:27 “I adjure you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brethren”.
Hence, the semi-clerical position of Reader was created so that someone would be assigned to read the Scriptures aloud to the congregation.

In addition to the low literacy rate another factor which impacted availability of scripture to the early church was the expense. Unlike most of us they did not have electronic devices with multiple copies of the Bible. Only the very wealthy could afford to own copies of the NT books and almost certainly not even churches had copies of the OT.

timothyu · Mar 16, 2023

MMXX said:
I think also for a long time it was decided that only clergy were qualified to read and understand scripture.

How else but by controlling the narrative could the institution survive, especially as yet another government over mankind.

timothyu · Mar 16, 2023

Jeff Saunders said:
I even believe that many have made the Bible into an idol which is forbidden for us.

You mean like idolizing the church institution where people are more quick to defend their denomination that scripture itself?

PsaltiChrysostom · Mar 16, 2023

timothyu said:
How else but by controlling the narrative could the institution survive, especially as yet another government over mankind.

So where is your historical proof of this?

timothyu · Mar 16, 2023

PsaltiChrysostom said:
So where is your historical proof of this?

Are you saying it didn't survive? That it didn't use traditional means of controlling the masses?

PsaltiChrysostom · Mar 16, 2023

timothyu said:
Are you saying it didn't survive? That it didn't use traditional means of controlling the masses?

at this point, you arent making any sense. I have no clue as to what you are trying to get at.

timothyu · Mar 16, 2023

PsaltiChrysostom said:
at this point, you arent making any sense. I have no clue as to what you are trying to get at.

Are you saying the man made institution did not survive as historical proof of your question?

eleos1954 · Mar 16, 2023

timothyu said:
Were the scriptures withheld from the masses for centuries because they posed a stumbling block to Christianity itself?

Scripture was not made available in written form and in a variety of languages for a long time .... however .... even so ... Christianity has always struggled and always will .... but it won't be wiped out completely. The Lord always leaves a remnant.

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