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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

An FYI. Terror from the Right

ThatRobGuy

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As I posted above, this is incorrect.

The 1920 firearms act required firearms owners to have a certificate from the police, and made the presumptive right to own firearms conditional on both the police and Home Secretary.

In 1937, self defence was removed as a possible reason for owning firearms by the Home Secretary.

Subsequent acts have tightened restrictions on which firearms may be held under license and strengthened requirements on licensed owners in regards to storage/safety/suitability/etc.

We haven't had "access to the same kinds of firearms we did" in the way you did for the best part of a century.

In reading the various firearms acts that the UK has implemented, it would seem that there have been several iterations, with the 1996 one being the most prohibitive.

The bulk of the murders are done with handguns (only 3% happen with rifles)...

And in the 1988 firearms act in the UK:
semi-automatic pistols were unaffected.

...the 1988 provision and previous previsions were mainly pertaining to shotguns and center fire rifles.


But, if the UK example doesn't work for people, we can also discuss the Czech Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_Czech_Republic

They have "shall issue" licensing just like the US
They have concealed carry permits just like the US (even with a similar percentage of concealed permit holders)

While they're a bit stricter in terms of gun attachments, they're actually less restrictive in this regard:
Carrying guns in schools and campuses is not prohibited by law and there are no so called "gun-free zones".


Yet, the Czech Republic remains a safe place with low murder rate.

Based on the logic presented by others, their murder rate should be right up there with ours, but it's not, it's right down there with yours.

Which would indicate that there's more to it than simply assuming "more guns means more murder"

Some key differences to note are that they don't have the same amount of poverty we have (which often is associated with high crime areas), and their background checks include comprehensive mental health data, which we don't have due to HIPAA privacy regulations.
 
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MrSpikey

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In reading the various firearms acts that the UK has implemented, it would seem that there have been several iterations, with the 1996 one being the most prohibitive.

Far from it. The 1920 act removed the presumed right to own firearms completely. Subsequent acts tightened up the types of firearms that could be held under license, and the conditions of those licenses.

The 1997 (rather than 1996) act prohibited most pistols which were already subject to prohibition generally unless held under license from the police. When it came into effect, "162,000 pistols and 700 tons of ammunition and related equipment were handed in by an estimated 57,000 people - 0.1% of the population" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firea...ed_Kingdom#1997_Firearms_.28Amendment.29_Acts). Nowhere near the effect of the earlier ban, nor the amnesties that accompanied them.

If you want to keep on peddling the same rubbish, at least try and get the year of the Acts of Parliament right. Then you might at least sound like you know what you are talking about.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Far from it. The 1920 act removed the presumed right to own firearms completely.

There's a difference between the removal of the presumed right, and the actual confiscation. While I'm not a fan of removing the presumed right either, that doesn't always equate to a countries intent to confiscate. There are numerous countries that don't have a presumed right to own firearms, but still allow their civilians to do so.

The 1997 (rather than 1996) act prohibited most pistols which were already subject to prohibition generally unless held under license from the police. When it came into effect, "162,000 pistols and 700 tons of ammunition and related equipment were handed in by an estimated 57,000 people - 0.1% of the population"

Okay, so then what was the point of legislation that prohibited things that were already prohibited?

If you want to keep on peddling the same rubbish, at least try and get the year of the Acts of Parliament right. Then you might at least sound like you know what you are talking about.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/greatbritain.php
In 1987 Michael Ryan shot and killed sixteen people, including his mother, and wounded fourteen more before killing himself in what became known as the Hungerford massacre.10] Ryan used two high-velocity semiautomatic rifles, a US M1 carbine, and an assault rifle that he lawfully owned to perpetrate the massacre.11] The Firearms (Amendment) Act 198812] was passed as a direct result of this incident. The 1988 Act banned the ownership of high-powered self-loading rifles and burst-firing weapons

Hmmm...so this guy lawfully owned an assault rifle in 1987 huh? How would that be possible if what you're saying was true? So, we're back to what I said, civilians were allowed own AR's in the UK up until 1988, and the UK's murder rate was just as low in the early 80's as it is today...meaning the control measures didn't have an impact one way or the other on the murder rate. (like I said earlier)

I notice you didn't address the Czech Republic example I provided.

They have gun laws that are closer to ours than yours, and they have a lower murder rate than you guys do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

If it were just as simple as "more guns = more murder" shouldn't their rate be higher than yours???
 
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MrSpikey

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There's a difference between the removal of the presumed right, and the actual confiscation.

There was no confiscation, such an exercise would be very expensive and exceedingly difficult to operate. Amnesties were offered at various times since the 1920 bill, as they continue to be offered periodically today. If you choose not to surrender your firearm, then you have commited an offence and, when discovered, will be dealt with as such.

There was no right to possess as firearm after the 1920 bill - it was at the discretion of the police, and hence, not a right.

Okay, so then what was the point of legislation that prohibited things that were already prohibited?

The reasons for which a license could be requested were narrowed, and the firearms that were licenseable were also restricted.



http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/greatbritain.php
In 1987 Michael Ryan shot and killed sixteen people, including his mother, and wounded fourteen more before killing himself in what became known as the Hungerford massacre.10] Ryan used two high-velocity semiautomatic rifles, a US M1 carbine, and an assault rifle that he lawfully owned to perpetrate the massacre.11] The Firearms (Amendment) Act 198812] was passed as a direct result of this incident. The 1988 Act banned the ownership of high-powered self-loading rifles and burst-firing weapons

Hmmm...so this guy lawfully owned an assault rifle in 1987 huh? How would that be possible if what you're saying was true? So, we're back to what I said, civilians were allowed own AR's in the UK up until 1988, and the UK's murder rate was just as low in the early 80's as it is today...meaning the control measures didn't have an impact one way or the other on the murder rate. (like I said earlier)

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre:

Ryan had been issued a shotgun certificate in 1978, and on 11 December 1986 he was granted a firearms certificate covering the ownership of two pistols. He later applied to have the certificate amended to cover a third pistol, as he intended to sell one of the two he had acquired since the granting of the certificate (which was a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver), and to buy two more. This was approved on 30 April 1987. On 14 July, he applied for another variation, to cover two semi-automatic rifles, which was approved on 30 July. At the time of the massacre, he was in licensed possession of the following weapons:

Zabala shotgun
Browning shotgun
Beretta 92FS semi-automatic 9 mm pistol
CZ ORSO semi-automatic .32-caliber pistol
Bernardelli .22-caliber pistol
Type 56 7.62×39mm semi-automatic[6]
M1 carbine .30 7.62x33mm semi-automatic rifle (a rare "Underwood" model)

Ryan used the Beretta pistol, and the Type 56 and M1 rifles, in the massacre. The CZ pistol was being repaired by a dealer at the time.[7] The Type 56 was purchased from firearms dealer Mick Ranger.[6]

You will notice the extensive use of "issued", "granted", "certificate", etc. in that. He had no intrinsic right to own those weapons, he was granted one by the state.

I notice you didn't address the Czech Republic example I provided.

They have gun laws that are closer to ours than yours, and they have a lower murder rate than you guys do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

I'm not from the Czech republic, and no nothing of their firearms laws, so I did not comment on them. If only others in a similar situation did the same...

If it were just as simple as "more guns = more murder" shouldn't their rate be higher than yours???

I haven't looked at your figures, and have no particular interest in doing so. I am merely concerned with your blatant misrepresentation of the laws of my country.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You will notice the extensive use of "issued", "granted", "certificate", etc. in that. He had no intrinsic right to own those weapons, he was granted one by the state.

I never suggested that there was an intrinsic right the UK...I simply said that in the 80's, citizens in the UK could get the same guns we were able to get here...and they could, and Michael Ryan did.

I haven't looked at your figures, and have no particular interest in doing so. I am merely concerned with your blatant misrepresentation of the laws of my country.

I didn't misrepresent your laws...I never said anything about intrinsic rights to own firearms or anything of that nature.

My claim was never that the UK and US had same licensing process or registration process, my claim was solely around debunking the premise that "less guns = less murder"

My comment, that you initially replied to, was this:
In terms of the per capita murder rate, while it's true that we are much higher than the UK, the same was true 25 years ago when they had access to the same kinds of firearms we did. Their murder rate has been relatively static since the late 70's.

Only error in my initial statement was that I should have said "28 years ago" and not "25 years ago".

...so I didn't say anything false there (aside from rounding my number of years to a nice rounded number). In 1987, a citizen in the UK could buy a semi-auto rifle....and up till '96-'97, could buy a handgun.

...and in the early-mid 80's when both types of guns were available, your murder rate was the same as it is today (still much lower than ours).
 
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