createdtoworship
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createdtoworship
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Subduction Zone
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Perhaps. That chart measure grade level not age. And only 4 were in the bracket of 3rd to 5th grade.
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Yeah, this.
What, did you really think there was a version of the Bible out there simple enough for a three-year-old to read it?
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createdtoworship
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I see me error,
Well reading levels have gone down in the last few hundred years.
so when older translations were made, like the KJV version, it was a grade 6 not a grade 12 (Assuming about twice the reading rate from the above chart).
It's not that it's too hard to read, it's that we can't read it properly because of the public school system. BTW the public school system was never in the constitution. NEver should federal dollars be spent to educate the masses.
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createdtoworship
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yeah I thought it was age not grade level, threw me for a loop.
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biggles53
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You know....it's always possible to tell when your argument is biting....people try to shift the focus...
My point was NOT about evil.....it was about the irreconcilable conflict between the concept of an all-knowing, all-seeing being and that of 'free will'.....you simply cannot have both.
But what is worse, as I have argued several times now, is that you worship this supposed entity, who judges your life based upon actions that you perform which it knew about before you even lived, and which it embedded into your make-up....
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biggles53
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So, the 'saving' is the basis of the judgement...
And, according to you lot, your god would have known who was to be 'saved' and who not, at the moment it created everything...
So, the judgement is a sham....
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bhsmte
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There is no question, there are a multitude of significant contradictions when you look at how christians describe their God and then discuss things like; judgment, free will, prayers, evil, omnipotent, all loving, etc. etc.
There is no way to try and reconcile these contradictions, without piling on to the problem.
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EternalDragon
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You are still confusing free will with something God controls. You can have all knowing and free will at the same time.
You are completely free to choose whatever you want to do. It is just that God already saw that choice. Like a snapshot of the future. I am speaking here of free will from a biblical perspective and not a philosophical one.
It seems to me you are saying God should have created life with no free will and controlled all our decisions, enslaving us. Or that God should have not created life at all and remained alone even though his creation has a happy ending. Or the last possibility, that God should not judge sin and let life run amok. No laws, no rules, no consequences.
You seem to want it your way and don't want to be subject to a creator.
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biggles53
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I am NOT subject to a creator...!
If any entity, whether it be a claimed god, a seeing-eye dog, or a rusty nail has 'perfect vision' of the future, then that future can turn out no other way than what was foreseen
So, any concept of 'free will' exists only in the mind of the actor....in actual fact, he/ she is compelled to follow whatever 'vision' was foreseen.
But you avoid the crux of the matter......you therefore have a situation whereby this supposed entity makes judgement of people's lives...NOT on the basis of a completely free and unaffected choice by these people, but instead on the basis of choices that this entity knew would happen and who programmed those choice-making influences into those people....!
This is NOT the behaviour of someone who is kind, loving and just, as is claimed by those who purport to worship it....!
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EternalDragon
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Yeah, I agree but that is not the reality we have here. Maybe in a sci-fi movie but not real life. No God pre-programmed any persons actions. That would be a puppet master world.
Have you read the Bible at all? God created us with free will as he himself has. Otherwise you could not come on here and post something false.
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If god knew exactly what would occur before he created then he created everything that would happen. An omnipotent creator with omniscience can only ever be watching puppets play out the roles he created.
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biggles53
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You're not getting it, are you...?
You would claim that your god created us, as we are...no? Fine....that means he made us, complete with all our faults and strengths. Which means that our 'ability' to do bad things has always been with us.
Now, before you start blaming it all on a 'fall', remember that in order for us to have been tempted into sin,we must have had that capability always within us.
Ok....he makes a faulty product....no biggy so far....
But then you guys would claim that this god can see all things in all times. This means that he knew all of the good and bad things that we would do, even before we were born............and he would have known who all the people were that were going to worship him and those who would not...
So, what's the purpose of the 'judgement'....? If he already knew the outcome, then it's just a sham.....!
I can't think of a better example to illustrate that religions and gods are man-made.....
Many times..
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Ana the Ist
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I like to use this question to explain the paradox to people who don't seem to understand it. Tomorrow, I'm going to go to the store to buy a soda. I can choose either Coke or Pepsi. God, since he already knows the future, knows that I will buy the Coke. When tomorrow comes...can I still choose the Pepsi?
If the answer is yes, then god for whatever reason, didn't know the future. If the answer is no...then I never really had a choice did I? I was always going to buy the Coke and the "choice" of the Pepsi isn't real because I cannot choose it.
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Ana the Ist
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Well done.....!
Ty. Believe me I had to come up with about a dozen garbage analogies before I thought of one easy enough for someone to understand...the implications of this don't merely relate to god's omniscience though...
All "prophecies" biblical or otherwise cannot exist in a world of free will for the exact same reasons. The coming of the anti-christ? Not if he's aborted before he's even born...and so on etc etc. If one tries to argue that only a few choices aren't made of free will (for example let's say god stops the anti-christs mother from aborting him) that person would have to forget that the entire series of events that led to the anti's mother getting impregnated would also require a suspension of free will.
They are indeed mutually exclusive...you cannot have both knowledge of the future and agents of free will.
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