An Article I Found Validating Christ's Deity

[DrBubbaLove]

Kutte
How about the verse we started this exchange on: from The Gospel of Love Chapter 16, verse 7 begins a whole sequence of Our Lord God speaking about what the Holy Spirit will do. As I indicated before, He speaks of the Holy Spirit as one would of another person - not a thing.

Given You have claimed the Holy Spirit is simply God's influence on us - like a force - I have asked repeatedly how that fits with Jesus speaking of that influence as if it was actually another person rather than the influence of another Person.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

One of the things that i've had to deal with in recent years is feeling what others do in response to a prayer to see things as God does years further back . One of the main concepts in the bible that helped with this was the passages speaking of the oneness of Jesus and the Father in the gospel of John, the whole "being one" with other people who were in the image and likeness of God, helped illustrate what trinity was all about: Persons sharing the same experience as if there was no space between objects. . . and in this God shares his experience with us. I tend to look at the Holy Spirit as where Eve got her unique image and likeness as a side note.

 

[Kutte]

Kutte
How about the verse we started this exchange on: from The Gospel of Love Chapter 16, verse 7 begins a whole sequence of Our Lord God speaking about what the Holy Spirit will do. As I indicated before, He speaks of the Holy Spirit as one would of another person - not a thing.

Given You have claimed the Holy Spirit is simply God's influence on us - like a force - I have asked repeatedly how that fits with Jesus speaking of that influence as if it was actually another person rather than the influence of another Person.

Kutte
How about the verse we started this exchange on: from The Gospel of Love Chapter 16, verse 7 begins a whole sequence of Our Lord God speaking about what the Holy Spirit will do. As I indicated before, He speaks of the Holy Spirit as one would of another person - not a thing.

Given You have claimed the Holy Spirit is simply God's influence on us - like a force - I have asked repeatedly how that fits with Jesus speaking of that influence as if it was actually another person rather than the influence of another Person.

Hi DrBubbaLove,

You did not answer my question. Please give me some scripture reference "with Jesus speaking of that influence as if it was actually another person rather than the influence of another Person." [/QUOTE] Thank you.
Seems to me your post is a double version.

Kutte

 

[Kutte]

One of the things that i've had to deal with in recent years is feeling what others do in response to a prayer to see things as God does years further back . One of the main concepts in the bible that helped with this was the passages speaking of the oneness of Jesus and the Father in the gospel of John, the whole "being one" with other people who were in the image and likeness of God, helped illustrate what trinity was all about: Persons sharing the same experience as if there was no space between objects. . . and in this God shares his experience with us. I tend to look at the Holy Spirit as where Eve got her unique image and likeness as a side note.

Hi Michael,

Indeed. In John 10:30 Jesus is being quoted as saying: "I and the Father are one." It does not mean one and the same person but one in spirit. You see, an entire nation of people can also be ONE in spirit, for instance when wanting to defend itself against an outside aggressor.

Kutte

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi Michael,

Indeed. In John 10:30 Jesus is being quoted as saying: "I and the Father are one." It does not mean one and the same person but one in spirit. You see, an entire nation of people can also be ONE in spirit, for instance when wanting to defend itself against an outside aggressor.

Kutte

Or as one body, many cells but one unified purpose, the nuance I speak of is something else though, but it's something I needed to experience to see.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Kutte,
The verses have not changed since we started this and I have pointed that out several times. Here it is again:

Jhn 16:7- 14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Bolding mine showing Jesus, our Lord God Himself, speaking of the Holy Spirit as if He really is another Person. You have yet to address how that works in a view which says the Holy Spirit is not a Who, but an it. Why would God speak of an it as if it was actually another Person?

 

[Kutte]

Kutte,
The verses have not changed since we started this and I have pointed that out several times. Here it is again:

Jhn 16:7- 14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Bolding mine showing Jesus, our Lord God Himself, speaking of the Holy Spirit as if He really is another Person. You have yet to address how that works in a view which says the Holy Spirit is not a Who, but an it. Why would God speak of an it as if it was actually another Person?

Hi DrBubbaLove, dear brother in Christ, this is dear old Kutte.

You are still speaking of Jesus as "our Lord God Himself" although scripture clearly shows us that Jesus told his disciples that he did not bring them his own thoughts but those of God who sent him. Now, how am I poor soul going to make any sense of this?

Regarding John 16:7-14. Indeed, you may have a point here when John describes the Holy Spirit as "he" which is the "Spirit of Truth". But I have a problem with this because the "Spirit of Truth" can be found anywhere without attaching a being or person to it. The Spirit of Truth can only come from a He, She or It, a point of origin. In this case God. Therefore John's scripture tells us that by "He" it means the Spirit of God, not a thing or person.

Kutte

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Kutte,
I speak what is true of His Divinity and for the sake of staying on topic I will try to stop but it kind of comes naturally.

Saint John is quoting Jesus saying those things. In this context and for simplicity, we are speaking of sentient "beings" as "persons". Anything else would correctly be called a "thing" or "it" in this context.

So again, any clue why Jesus would speak of something you claim is a not a person as if it was a person?

 

[Kutte]

Kutte,
I speak what is true of His Divinity and for the sake of staying on topic I will try to stop but it kind of comes naturally.

Saint John is quoting Jesus saying those things. In this context and for simplicity, we are speaking of sentient "beings" as "persons". Anything else would correctly be called a "thing" or "it" in this context.

So again, any clue why Jesus would speak of something you claim is a not a person as if it was a person?

Hi DrBubbaLove,

In case you missed it, I have not wandered off the topic. You seem to simply ignore when Jesus said that he did not present his own thoughts but those of God who sent him thereby proving that he was not God but His messenger. There are many passages in scripture in which Jesus spoke of God as his Father. You don't believe that Jesus was his own father, do you?

I also answered your question regarding the issue of John 16:7-14. With the "He" Jesus referred to the Spirit of Truth which can only come from a being or entity whereby the spirit itself does not represent a being or entity. He added according to John 16:13: "...he (the spirit) will guide you into all truth, for he (the spirit) shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak." A clear indication for a transmitting function by spiritual means.

Kutte

 

[Der Alte]

DrBubbalLove,

If Jesus were God he would not have said in John 7:16, "I am not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me." Therefore, if Jesus were God did he sent himself or what? It does not make any sense whatsoever to me. Simply put, Jesus was God's messenger for the purpose of "preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God for that is why he was sent." (Luke 4:43)

If our Catholic brothers believe that God's Holy Spirit can influence our ways of thinking and acting, then this is alright with me.
But we do have a free will and one can reject the influence of God's Holy Spirit. This also explains why the spiritual is not a thing or person but a quality.

Please give me some references in which Jesus relates to an influence is a real person. Influence can only come from a real being.

Wishing you well, Kutte

Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91] Scripture cited.​

Sources Consulted:

CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hi DrBubbaLove,

In case you missed it, I have not wandered off the topic. You seem to simply ignore when Jesus said that he did not present his own thoughts but those of God who sent him thereby proving that he was not God but His messenger. There are many passages in scripture in which Jesus spoke of God as his Father. You don't believe that Jesus was his own father, do you?

I also answered your question regarding the issue of John 16:7-14. With the "He" Jesus referred to the Spirit of Truth which can only come from a being or entity whereby the spirit itself does not represent a being or entity. He added according to John 16:13: "...he (the spirit) will guide you into all truth, for he (the spirit) shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that shall he speak." A clear indication for a transmitting function by spiritual means.

Kutte

Stating what thinks Jesus refers to is not answering my question. I got long ago that you think the Holy Spirit is another name for God's influence on us. Am asking why then would Jesus speak of that "influence" as if it were an actual real individual rather than a "force". You have yet to answer. Simply repeating that one believes it is so does not answer that question.

 

[Kutte]

Stating what thinks Jesus refers to is not answering my question. I got long ago that you think the Holy Spirit is another name for God's influence on us. Am asking why then would Jesus speak of that "influence" as if it were an actual real individual rather than a "force". You have yet to answer. Simply repeating that one believes it is so does not answer that question.

Dear DrBubbaLove,


It seems to me that we are not going to find a common ground on the spiritual issue.

Therefore, permit me to say that if it makes you comfortable believing that spirit is a masculine person, with male sex hormone features, (He!) to be send by Jesus to his disciples after He departed from his present life, please continue to do so.

Because this thread was primarily designed to deal with the topic of “Validating Christ's Deity”, are you still convinced that Jesus is God?

Kutte

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Kutte,
Not sure what long line of reference one is referring to. Perhaps the excellent ones provided by Der Alter?

Not a matter of comfort, a matter of reality. Will say that apparently some are comfortable having a deceptive God/Jesus who they see as saying things He really did not mean - as in someone else is coming when He really meant God will send His influence on you. Or as in another thread, the resurrected Jesus is no longer human and just deceived His followers into thinking He still had human flesh/a body.

Yes, Jesus is God. He said as much and was even understood by non-believers that heard Him say it as saying as much. Saint John's Gospel of Love opens with that declaration. On those grounds and many others I think it is kind of hard to deny it.

 

[Kutte]

Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3

[91] Scripture cited.​

Sources Consulted:

CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

Hi Der Alter,

Since you are using two German words, "Der" and "Alter" in your avatar, may I recommend changing them into the correct sequence?
"Alter" translates to "age". If you intend to express just an age then it should properly be expressed as "Das Alter". If you want to express the feature "old". like in "the old man", then it should simply read "Der Alte". Hope I did not offend.

Kutte

 

[Kutte]

Kutte,
Not sure what long line of reference one is referring to. Perhaps the excellent ones provided by Der Alter?

Not a matter of comfort, a matter of reality. Will say that apparently some are comfortable having a deceptive God/Jesus who they see as saying things He really did not mean - as in someone else is coming when He really meant God will send His influence on you. Or as in another thread, the resurrected Jesus is no longer human and just deceived His followers into thinking He still had human flesh/a body.

Yes, Jesus is God. He said as much and was even understood by non-believers that heard Him say it as saying as much. Saint John's Gospel of Love opens with that declaration. On those grounds and many others I think it is kind of hard to deny it.

DrBubbaLove,

You must be right on my tail while I am writing a message. Jesus is God? In that case you will have to accept that God died on the cross and while God was dead for three days the devil had a hell of a good time causing chaos in the universe.

Kutte

 

[DrBubbaLove]

DrBubbaLove,

You must be right on my tail while I am writing a message. Jesus is God? In that case you will have to accept that God died on the cross and while God was dead for three days the devil had a hell of a good time causing chaos in the universe.

Kutte

Why would I "have to accept that"?

Seem rather silly to imagine an Eternal Spirit dying, don't you agree?

Fully God and Fully Man does not mean God can die. To be really human it does mean a person we say is Fully Man must be able to die - and so He did.

As long as one is imagining what the Trinity Doctrine means rather than listening to people who actually believe it, it is not like the Hulk, who in the "form" of Bruce Banner would lose his healing powers. God did not take the form of a man, He became Man and that Man is ALSO God. Both.

 

[Kutte]

Why would I "have to accept that"?

Seem rather silly to imagine an Eternal Spirit dying, don't you agree?

Fully God and Fully Man does not mean God can die. To be really human it does mean a person we say is Fully Man must be able to die - and so He did.

As long as one is imagining what the Trinity Doctrine means rather than listening to people who actually believe it, it is not like the Hulk, who in the "form" of Bruce Banner would lose his healing powers. God did not take the form of a man, He became Man and that Man is ALSO God. Both.

DrBubbaLove,

I agree, God is immortal. Regardless if God took the form of a man or not it was still God that was nailed on the cross according to the Trinity Doctrine. We, as real humans, do not have the privilege of being both, truly man and truly God, we are simply only truly man. Therefore, as you said, that this man on the cross was ALSO GOD, Both, it must be concluded that God as man as well as God died on the cross.
Dear DrBubbaLove, this whole belief system looks a bit bizarre to a free thinking Christian Theist like me.

Kutte

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Kutte,
Well in my view of God He is not limited in what He can do. He created us. He is One God in Three Persons - each fully God and fully in each Other, only one of which became Man (while still remaining God). So the man called Jesus is unique in that regard, but also still fully human. That is our belief. Am unclear why one should see God as incapable of becoming Man while still remaining God. And since that is our belief - the God He is cannot die nor has He ever been limited by that Man's flesh and is not limited now by His Resurrected Flesh (yes He became Man - which means He was resurrected Body and Soul just like He said He would be and also said we could be).

With the Son of God becoming Man and that Man having two natures - one fully God the other fully human. God is limitless, so to imagine the Divine being nailed to a tree would require us to say that once God became Man, God was limited by the boundaries of that body. The Church and the Trinity Doctrine do not teach such a view of God. It would also require us to believe God changes (going from unbounded to being bounded by the flesh of the Man He became).

Unlike other views presented in this forum section of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit - our views are all congruent with each other and not in conflict with either scripture, nor do the various revealed details conflict with each other. For instance God never changes - but some here say He became Man for just a while then "returned" to His former state - which conflicts with saying God is eternal and unchanging.

So all I can say is yes, the Man who was nailed to the Cross is also God. It would also be silly to imagine a Divine, Invisible ,Eternal, Infinite, boundless Spirit getting nailed to a tree.

 

[Kutte]

Kutte,
Well in my view of God He is not limited in what He can do. He created us. He is One God in Three Persons - each fully God and fully in each Other, only one of which became Man (while still remaining God). So the man called Jesus is unique in that regard, but also still fully human. That is our belief. Am unclear why one should see God as incapable of becoming Man while still remaining God. And since that is our belief - the God He is cannot die nor has He ever been limited by that Man's flesh and is not limited now by His Resurrected Flesh (yes He became Man - which means He was resurrected Body and Soul just like He said He would be and also said we could be.

With the Son of God becoming Man and that Man having two natures - one fully God the other fully human. God is limitless, so to imagine the Divine being nailed to a tree would require us to say that once God became Man God was limited by the boundaries of that body. The Church and the Trinity Doctrine do not teach such a view of God. It would also require us to believe God changes (going from unbounded to being bounded by the flesh of the Man He became).

Unlike other views presented in this forum section of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit - our views are all congruent with each other and not in conflict with either scripture, nor do the various revealed details conflict with each other. For instance God never changes - but some here say He became Man for just a while then "returned" to His former state - which conflicts with saying God is eternal and unchanging.

So all I can say is yes, the Man who was nailed to the Cross is also God. It would also be silly to imagine a Divine, Invisible ,Eternal, Infinite, boundless Spirit getting nailed to a tree.

Dear DrBubbaLove,

You gave a very fine presentation above and you deserve a thank you for your endeavor. But it does not solve the problem at hand, it only serves to underline it. According to your writings it was God being crucified, (Jesus is God) regardless in what shape or form, (One God in three persons) and it was God who died and it was God who resurrected himself from the dead. It was God who shouted: "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" (Mark 16:34) Did God cry out to himself or what? Honestly, it makes no sense to me.

Kutte

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Kutte,
It makes no sense to you because of your view of Who God is and your view Scripture which seems incongruent to me. First of all, "My God, My God...." is the beginning of a song, which happens to be one any faithful Jew of the day would have imediately recognized and it is a victory song, which seems much more fitting than seeing Our Savior in dispair. Just saying.

Second, as I keep saying - our belief that God became Man is not like picturing Zeus or Poseidon or Odin (Harbard on Vikings) "taking" a human "form". So Jesus is BOTH a real Man AND STILL God. God is Spirit and as such cannot be "nailed" to anything or confined to a human body and soul. God is Eternal, which means He cannot die. Jesus is God AND a Man. Not God at one moment and man the next. He is and remains at all times BOTH. Becoming a man did not suddenly make(change) God mortal or limited or changing. God stayed the same, but One of the Persons is also now a living Man - united with a real human body (now resurrecrted) and soul. When Jesus gave up His human spirit on the Cross, that spirit is still one with the Spirit - IOW about the third hour of the watch the man Jesus dies, yet that human still exists as a soul. So even during those three days, the soul of the man Jesus is still rightly called God, just as He remains God and Man when that same soul is resurrected with a body.

So my answer, despite what you imply, solves your imagined problem because the problem only exists in the minds of those who do not understand what is meant by Jesus being BOTH God and a man. The humanity (human nature - which entails having a real human body and a human soul) of Jesus was just like the rest of us, born mortal. By unlike any one else who has or will ever live, He has another Nature - the Son of God, the Word, Who was and is Eternal, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God.....