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It still boils down to being freed after hell. The bible never says that---it says the lost will perish.
If you are wrong--which scripturally your theory just plain does not hold water--then you and those who think that, are in for a nasty surprise.
Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6...
How do we overcome...? (Revelation 2:11) Through "peace", and by dying to to a former unpeaceful self, and being born again new... We overcome death through death or by dying, by way of submission which cause us to die to self... And if we've died in this life, and others have not, it will be awaiting them in the next life, but will pass over or pass by, us who encountered it in the former life... Something to think about...
God Bless!
You are willfully missing it. The punishment on Sodom of fire and brimstone ie the 2nd death is our example of what is to occur in the fire and brimstone of the great white throne judgment, not the first death as you have said. And we see Sodom being restored, thus out of the 2nd death comes restoration.
And the reason it is more tolerable for Sodom is because they never had Christ preach to them in their day for if they had they would have repented long ago.
Of whom God gives much to He requires much and if you do not use the talent God has given you it will be taken away which will add to your torment.
and you are willfully ignoring what the example shows, which is an example of the 2nd death. You just refuse to believe the example set out by scripture.The fact that they are still to stand before God on judgement day shows clearly that they have not gone through the 2nd death---seems like it is you that is willfully missing it.
and you are willfully ignoring what the example shows, which is an example of the 2nd death. You just refuse to believe the example set out by scripture.
You wording is weird---endless annihilation??? Don't even know what that is---it is annihilation---that is it. Death. period. What God said at the very beginning.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(The word "day" in Gen 1 and in Gen 2 are 2 different words. Gen 1 is 24 hours, creation --
Gen 2 is ages.)
He did not say they would be tormented in hell forever---the wages of sin is death---period. For which Jesus paid the price. He did not pay the price for the 2nd death. Something which you totally ignore.
The good news is that Jesus died that 1st death and paid the price for us and we can accept it and have eternal life and not die.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
What does it matter? In the end you get out and have eternal life with Jesus--according to you. You teach you can live like the devil and still inherit the kingdom on God.
So you go to hell---big deal--according to you, we will be saved after that anyway.
It still boils down to being freed after hell. The bible never says that---it says the lost will perish.
If you are wrong--which scripturally your theory just plain does not hold water--then you and those who think that, are in for a nasty surprise.
Where does Scripture say that we are "in for a nasty surprise"?
Did God make you the judge of people's hearts?
Thanks for replying.Hi hatguy I actually agree, especially with what I highlighted.
Here is a link if you are interested to see my views on the great white throne judgment and what that judgment is and represents. Hint if is the CROSS
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-great-white-throne.8079354/
If we do think that 'paying the price' should include hell, I do think the Christian Universalist who believes in a "rehabilitative" or "restorative" hell sits with a similar problem. If the very last person to come to put their trust in Jesus takes 2,000 years to do so in hell, then Jesus should have spent 2,000 years in hell. Even if (as someone claimed on this thread) that it is an age of 1,000 years, then Jesus should have spent 1,000 years in hell. But He didn't. It appears He spent only a few days there (if He spent any time there at all).
Possibly, but I do find the notion rather speculative. There's certainly no solid Biblical evidence for such a notion.It's possible that, as of the Son of God/God the Son, any suffering on Christ's part gets multiplied upwards by some relevant factor. Let's say 1 day for a normal person in Hell would reverse-correspond to 1000 days, or 1 year, or whatever, for Christ (every day He is there is like 365 or 1000 days would be for us). So in 3 days (or 1.5 days or whatever) He might suffer more than enough for any given one of us?
The nasty surprise is for those who think they have a 2nd chance and find out they do not when it is too late.
We are all free to make our own choices. Too sad to make others think they can put off salvation and living for Jesus in this world until after hell---their end will be placed on the head of those that lead them to think that----this is of no further use.
The concept that God is so loving that he will not annihilate anyone and so will send many to hell until they agree with Him is what a lot of men consider to be love.
They will beat their significant other black and blue and then they claim to love them. Your concept paints a picture of a God that will torment and torture for who knows how long until they finally say "Yes! I love you!""
Shades of the Spanish Inquisition---torture them until they recant and agree to their terms. That y0u call that love is not just ludicrous, but downright obscene.
That anyone would rather die, permanently---cease to exist--the to be with God, you may find beyond comprehension ---but Satan would rather do so and His followers also.
The thought of living forever with God is sheer torture to them--they love sin.
Sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God.
And God does not force anyone to do His will.
If we choose to be without the protection of Jesus---there is nothing that can protect anyone from the fire light that is God.
It is not love to torture anyone into submission.
Love means allowing to choose death over life with Him of their own free will.
It is not love for anyone to force a another to stay with them out of fear of pain.
God spends our entire life calling us into His arms through Jesus---here is no 2nd chance. Believe what you want.
Saving men into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like an endless Hitler-like gas chamber.
Suffering is the fate of humanity in this world. God allows it. He allows evil, torments & tortures. Even though He could easily stop it all. Therefore it must be for a good purpose.
In the book of Job the man named Job suffers the loss of his family, wealth & health. We are told that God removed His protection from Job & gave Satan permission to destroy Job's life. Thereafter He restored what Job had lost so that he had even more than before, both spiritually & materially.
Even - if - that were true, it would - still - be infinitely more loving than an endless annihilation Hitler-god. Do you not believe the Scriptures:
1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
2 Cor.12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
God's anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me." (Is.12:1)
The judgement of God's wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)
Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners
Hab.1:12b O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.
Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.
When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)
Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.
Irrelevant. God knows what's best for them, namely being saved & living in endless bliss with Him. So even - if - anyone wished to be annihilated forever, Love would never grant such a wish. That would be unloving. Just as unloving as allowing a spoiled brat child to have her/his way in doing something that would cause his/her irreparable harm or death.
So does everyone until God works in their life.
Satan was in the presence of God. Read the book of Job.
God is patient. He has all eternity to wait for those in "hell" to repent. There are ages to come in which people can change their mind & turn to Love Omnipotent to receive His salvation in Christ. Until then they'll reap what they've sown. They won't know the peace, love or joy of God. They'll be in torments.
Love Omnipotent will protect them. Just as He does now. For in Him we all live & move & have our being.
What would you call what is described in 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20? Or what happened to Job in the book of Job? Or the thorn in the flesh Paul received? Or God's chastenings? Or being given to the tormentors till he pays (Mt.5 & 18)?
Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.
Mt.5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12
Mal.3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire, like a launderer's soap.
3 And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness
Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
A loving parent doesn't allow their 5 year old child to foolishly choose a path leading to his/her death.
But it's okay with you if God coerces people to come to him by the tormenting painful fear of endless extermination out of existence? Is that what motivates endless annihilation believing people like Jehovah's Witnesses & your SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) folks?
The fact is the wicked are already empty & in pain without being in union with their Maker. They are reaping what they've sown. How much more so when the things of this world they loved are removed from them in the afterlife?
In light of the above, i'd suggest you spend more time in the Bible & believing what it says instead of "what you want".
"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen
This is the typical view of love. Beat them into submission.
I have no doubt that if you have children, the home will be fine and happy as long as everyone does what you want. Beating a child until he surrenders his will for fear of pain is what many parents consider to be loving parents. There are parents in jail right now for that.
That one couple in the news not too long ago--chained up their kids for years --but they still do not think they did anything wrong---they were doing what was best for them.
Or the pain of letting the one you love to do as they wish.
If a wife or husband wants to leave them---beat them until they stay -- and then they will be happy.
God is willing to suffer the pain of letting a child go their won way and end up ceasing to exist rather than to beat them into a submission that leaves them resentful and full of anger and hatred.
He will miss them forever--the pain will be His--not theirs. Self-centered people can not comprehend that kind of love.
Slave owners felt that the blacks were better off as slaves, where they had all their needs taken care of and would whip them skinless for running away until they remained --nice and happy to be there. They felt slaves were ungrateful for their care. That is the kind of God you people want--the plantation owner with a whip to keep His slaves happy.
God is love---self sacrificing love. It is not an attribute--it is what He is. He is not selfish and self centered.
He offers eternal life--a life without tears, sorrow, pain, filled with beauty. Anyone can have it, that is why He died for us to be able to have it. He is not selfish enough to force this life on anyone.
They must want to be there and be there with Him, not out of fear of being tortured, but out of love for Him.
Those who love, will be there---those who do not, simply can not tolerate His presence and can not live in it.
I pray you will one day learn what true, unselfish love really means.
Good post concerning locusts and famine.The pain without death of the Revelation was famine leading to starvation, as in, "men shall seek death but shall not find it". The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve.
As to "eternal conscious torment", there are a lot of differing views on it. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary.
http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htmJeremiah 19:9
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters,
and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them
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