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Amillennialists have told me two conflicting things

Jamdoc

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First thing Amillennialists have said to me that doesn't fit: Isaiah 2 is about this current age, not a future age, or they may say it's about the eternal state, I've heard both from Amillenialists.

Isaiah 2
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Now first off this can't be the eternal state, because as we'll see it conflicts with Jeremiah 31 which I'll discuss later as the 2nd thing. This is a period of time where people will make pilgrimages to Jerusalem to learn about the Lord, Jeremiah 31 has no more teaching about the Lord because everyone will already know all about Him.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Obviously this is not this current age, they're talking about nations not the church before someone claims it's within the church..
it isn't the eternal state because the new earth they never will have had weapons to refashion into other tools.

and next.. Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
and I've heard Amillennialists say this is fulfilled now, but the great commission absolutely trainwrecks this idea because the Lord is talking about a future where evangelism won't be happening because everyone will already have been evangelized. It can ONLY be the eternal state. Why do amillennialists claim this is now?

Both Isaiah 2 and Jeremiah 31 are not this current age
and they can't be the same age simultaneously as the eternal state/new earth.

Isaiah 2 fits a Millennial Kingdom on Earth, and Jeremiah 31 fits an eternal state on a new earth. But they contradict if applied to the same age, and neither fit this age at all.
 

TribulationSigns

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First thing Amillennialists have said to me that doesn't fit: Isaiah 2 is about this current age, not a future age, or they may say it's about the eternal state, I've heard both from Amillenialists.

(facepalm)...Jamdoc...

Well, that is from a controversial chapter that I believe is almost universally misunderstood to mean a "future event." Jamdoc is certainly not alone in how he feels about this. Partly because we live in an "instant gratification" society that can't see the forest for the trees!

But the "context" is the last days (which is the whole New Testament period according to scripture) and the establishment of God's kingdom (which was at the time of the cross), and the cessation of warfare (which is also of Christ, the Prince of Peace). The problem (as I see it) is that people continually err in trying to look at prophecy as a physical/literal narrative. Worldly wars to cease, earthly kingdoms and thrones, physical lands, working on the land as farmers, it is usually always the same error. A lack of understanding that scripture interprets scripture and that God speaks in symbolism. Let us pick up the context from verse 1.

Isaiah 2:1-4
  • "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
  • And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
  • And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
  • And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
I believe that these passages speak not of universal peace on earth in the future, nor in heaven at Christ's second coming, but to the prophecies of Christ's first advent. The last days are the whole New Testament period, the new dispensation of Christ's Kingdom.

Acts 2:16-17
  • "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
  • And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
The last days encompass the whole New Testament period, and were established in Christ's millennial Kingdom reign, and signified by the sign wonders at Pentecost as Peter declared! Selah! That is when the Mountain (kingdom) of the Lord's house was established over all kingdoms, and the nations or Gentiles began to flow into it. This is wherein the King or ruler of this Kingdom brought peace to the whole earth (as opposed to primarily national Israel) and established judgment within the nations. This is how He ended their warfare. It is all pointing to the establishment of Christ's millennial kingdom reign, which is now. You may be able to see this a little clearer if we go about it systematically, letting scripture interpret itself.

Here is a brief overview if you want to receive the love of the Truth:

1. And he shall judge among the nations

To judge among the nations is illustrating that Christ will set up his Kingdom among all nations of the world, and that it will no longer be primarily national Israel. Christ judges the nations as sovereign ruler, governing all matters of God's law. Thus to judge among the nations means there will be a new dispensation, that Christ's kingdom will go to all, and He will sit as judge or ruler of all nations. Judgment is His rule of law, and rule is judgment. for example, even as the Judges God appointed in the Old Testament God were the rulers. Indeed it was for the purpose of executing this rule or judgment that Christ came. His Judging among the nations is in His establishing the kingdom that goes forth executing rule. And in order to do this, Satan, who rules over the nations, had to be defeated for man's sake.

Jeremiah 23:5-6
  • "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
  • In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Executing judgment on the earth is the rule in the Millennial reign of Christ (which is the New Testament Period), not something future or after Christ's second coming. And those who serve Christ are given this judgment in Him.

Revelation 20:3-4
  • "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  • And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Along with the coming of this Millennial Kingdom of Christ wherein the nations were enlightened, also came rule or judgment. The rule of God's law and the judgment of the Word. This is not something that is to come in the future, but that has already been accomplished by Christ. Even as Christ Himself explained.

John 12:31
  • "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
By whom? Judgment by Christ, that Satan's house or kingdom is being spoiled by the onslaught of this kingdom. So strong that the gates of Satan's prison house are not able to prevent Christ's church from being built in those Satan held captive (Hebrews 2:14-15). The nations are being judged among (even as Revelation 20 illustrated) by the advancement of the Kingdom rule. RIGHT NOW and it has been since Pentecost! As it was prophesied by God.

Isaiah 42:3-7
  • "bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
  • He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
  • Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
  • I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
  • To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."
Judgment is established in the earth by Christ so that out of the dark prison house of Satan's kingdom comes the spoil. In other words, the gates of Satan's house cannot prevent the Kingdom of Christ from being advanced among the nations or Gentiles. This is the Millennial reign and clearly this speaks of Christ. It declares that He is the one that shall bring forth rule or judgment unto truth. What is being illustrated is a new prevalence of Christian principles among the nations or Gentiles is established through the Kingdom of Christ. Indeed, it is written of Him:

Matthew 12:18
  • "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."
So it is perfectly clear that when God prophesies that he shall judge among the nations (Gentiles), it speaks of this same prophesy. This same establishment of Christ's Kingdom. Christ not only binds Satan that these nations not be deceived, but brings His law to the nations, convincing their consciences by changing their hearts that they are no longer deceived.

2. Rebuke many People

Too often today's puffed-up Christians "full of themselves" look upon Biblical rebuke as an "attack" when it is often simply a correction. By God's corrections, rebukes or warnings of judgment He brings the nations all over the world into subjection under His rule. Often how one reacts to this correction depends upon in what spirit they have received it.

Proverbs 9:8
  • "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."
As God says, "correction is grievous unto him that forsakes the way, and he that hates reproof shall die - Proverbs 15:10"

Rebuke or reproof in the Word is how God corrects, and unfortunately too many do not want to hear it as I see many here on th is forum. I'm sure most of us have heard professed Christians, having been quoted scripture, say that "..if that is the type of God you serve, I want no part of Him." That's because they don't like what "that God" has to say. They want another god, another Christ and another gospel wherein they can have it their own way. They scoff and even bristle at the rebuke of God. Nevertheless, here and there, there are those elect of the nations, who will respond differently to God's rebukes. The rebuke of nations by God is not to their shame, but to their glory. He rebukes many nations so that they may acknowledge their sins, and turn to him. And to be sure, the election will. And these rebukes by God are often testified to by God's servants.

2nd Timothy 4:2
  • "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
Indeed, Christ commissioned his apostles, and indeed all God's servants to teach all nations, and this teaching is Christ's rebuke of the world and its glory. A rebuke of ungodliness and unlawfulness that is so lacking in our day. So while most people look at rebuke as a bad thing, sometimes in scripture God uses it as a synonym for convicting someone of truth, or to convince by the word, or to patiently rebuke doctrinal faults. When God said to Peter, "get thee behind me Satan," it was not to attack him, but to correct his beliefs. For God loves whom He rebukes, and we should have that exact same love for our fellow man.

Titus 1:13
  • "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;"
Titus 2:15
  • "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
Even as God rebukes unto salvation, so the servants of God, themselves made to reign in His kingdom, rebuke, that many might be zealous, repent with zeal and live with Godly enthusiasm.

Revelation 3:19
  • "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
As illustrated in Revelation chapter 20, in establishing His Kingdom rule God binds Satan so that the nations won't be deceived. And it is then that He rebukes the nations so that they might also acknowledge their sins and return to the communion with God man had in the garden of Eden. As many as He loves He rebukes and chastens, just as He did with Israel. His pleasure is that the nations would be zealous and repent that He might have a people from all kindreds and tongues and nations. Even as Christ said so very plainly in His holy word, was what He came to do.

John 16:7-11
  • "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  • And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  • Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  • Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  • Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
This is saying the exact same thing that Isaiah 2:4 says in Him judging among the nations, and rebuking many people. We just have to have our ears Spiritually tuned to receive what is being said. His rebuke is by His Word and His Spirit, convincing the nations of its sin, repentance and forgiveness.

3. Beat their swords into Plowshares & Spears into Pruninghooks

God prophesies here that the law, the word of God, shall go out from the Holy City, and would judge the nations that these people would change their implements of war into implements of peace. A sword is an instrument used for war, and the plowshare is a type of hoe used for digging, and is an instrument for farming in agriculture.

1st Corinthians 3:7-9

  • "So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
  • Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
  • For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."
See? God is equating the people of His kingdom to those with plowshares who plant for the Lord. Just as the Kingdom of God is likened unto a sower who plants seed that it brings forth fruit. This signifies the kingdom of God going forth to the world, as plantings that are cared for and nourished that they might grow. In like manner, a spear is an instrument of war, while a pruninghook is an instrument used for plants. It is a knife-like instrument for pruning plants that they might grow better. Again, this signifying that these people will turn from being at war with God, to being spiritual husbandmen (farmers) working in His garden to care for the fruit of the field. Beating their swords into plowshares means they will abstain from warfare against God and exercise Godly charity (Agape) in well doing to others.

(continue to next post)
 
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4. Nation Shall Not Lift Up Sword Against Nation

Before we became saved, we were at spiritual war with God, nation against nation, Kingdom against Kingdom, and our instruments of warfare were spiritual. God's kingdom comes by the Spirit of Christ with the sword of the word of God. And the nation at enmity with it comes by the spirit of Antichrist with the word of Satan. An epic battle between two nations that has been fought since the Garden of Eden. Indeed, it is signified in

Genesis 25:23-26
  • "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
  • And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
  • And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
  • And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them."
This signified the two nations that are at war with each other. The nation Jacob, whom God loves because he represents the kingdom of God, and the nation Esau whom God hates because he represents the Kingdom of Satan. These two nations struggle against each other even as Jacob and Esau struggled in the womb. Because they are at enmity with one another.

Matthew 12:24-26
  • "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
  • And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
  • And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"
Christ is at enmity with Satan, and his kingdom with Christ's. Two nations as diverse as the two nations struggling within Rebekah. But Christ came to spoil that kingdom, to prevail over its gates, to deliver these people that the nations would not be at enmity, and Satan could not deceive them and prevent him taking them by conquest. For example, He came with the prophesied establishment of the Kingdom of God to make peace between the nations.

Matthew 12:28-30
  • "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  • Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
  • He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
In other words, in the coming of the Millennial kingdom of God, Satan had to "FIRST" be bound (Revelation 20) so that he could not deceive the nations any longer. This is the act of Christ that caused the nations to put away their swords!!! And that caused people to go into the business of plowing and pruning as Husbandmen for God. That they would be nations that would never again lift up a sword against this nation. Two Kingdoms at odds with each other, two nations that cannot normally co-exist together, but when Christ binds Satan that the nations are not deceived, it is all different. He brings peace with the nations, having them join Him in communion.

1st Peter 2:9-10
  • "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
  • Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
There is the Holy nation that the gentiles do not war with anymore. It is God's Holy nation. The nations (or gentiles) are now coming into this Holy Nation as Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ezekiel 37:21-24
  • "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
  • And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
  • Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
  • And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."

Not the heathen, but from among the heathen. They have strayed in forsaking God, but they were always the election, chosen unto salvation. The gates of hell cannot hold them when Christ's kingdom comes against those gates. So that never again will nation be at odds with nation when they are reconciled in Christ..


5. Neither Learn War Anymore

In Messiah's Kingdom reign, there shall be war no more. War is the opposite of peace, and is what we are when we are unsaved and at enmity with God. By the same token, when we are translated from the gates of the prison of darkness, into the Kingdom of Christ, our warfare is ended by the Prince of Peace. We are not battling with that nation anymore, we forsake such warfare governed by the Prince of Peace, with God. Even as prophesied.

Isaiah 40:1-3
  • "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
  • Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
  • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
Clearly this spoke of the first advent of Christ, and the spiritual warfare of a nation that has been brought to peace with God, through Christ. This is something that happened long ago, not something to come in the future like you believe!

Colossians 1:19-21
  • "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
  • And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
  • And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled."
The warfare is accomplished, we have been reconciled to God, brought peace, through Christ. We are comforted (Isaiah 40:1-3) because we have come unto this Holy nation, this holy city, this spiritual Jerusalem that would not learn war anymore. And it is a holy nation and city made up of Jews and Gentiles, Greeks and Romans, whites and blacks, old and young, all who have traded in their swords for plowshares. All who substitute enmity against God with ministering in the kingdom of Christ as sowers, planters and builders.

So Isaiah 2:4 has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with pie in the sky ideas of the world peace, or there being physical peace all over the earth because Christ sits in the Middle East, or the afterlife, etc. It speaks of Christ's first advent, and the imagery is illustrating the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom of peace and safety, of building and planting, of salvation to the nations THROUGH THE CHURCH! It speaks to the calling of the Gentile nations and the spread of the kingdom all over the earth.

Selah!
 
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TribulationSigns

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You already submitted almost an entire book in the first post. And there is even more? :)

Certainly for those who are serious about Bible studies. Do you think a page or two of my post is an "entire book"? Too lazy to read? Refuse to hear God's Word? I wondered if you even read the entire book of the Bible anyway.

Stop making excuses, DavidPT, and read. ;)
 
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Jamdoc

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I'm going to refute that entire novel with just a few verses
Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Doesn't sound like Isaiah 2 to me.
and Isaiah 2 was talking about nations not fighting nations. Internalizing that to just be "in the church" doesn't fit with the text. It doesn't mention only in the congregation, it talks nations. Entire ethnic groups.

Isaiah 2 says Nation won't rise against Nation
Jesus says Nation will rise against nation.

both are true, thus, they are not simultaneous in the same time period. Jesus said that this would happen in the future from their current temporal vantage point.
 
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I'm going to refute that entire novel with just a few verses
Matthew 24


Doesn't sound like Isaiah 2 to me.
and Isaiah 2 was talking about nations not fighting nations. Internalizing that to just be "in the church" doesn't fit with the text. It doesn't mention only in the congregation, it talks nations. Entire ethnic groups.

Isaiah 2 says Nation won't rise against Nation
Jesus says Nation will rise against nation.

both are true, thus, they are not simultaneous in the same time period. Jesus said that this would happen in the future from their current temporal vantage point.

It seems that you do not understand what Jesus said in Matthew 24:6-9 because it is referring to New Testament congregation of Israel the church AFTER Satan is loosened. It will be a time (probably now) when it is brother against brother, kingdom against kingdom, nation against nation. It is a symbolic illustration of SPIRITUAL WAREFARE where those ruled by one king (Satan) are adversarial to those ruled by another king (Jesus). It is not the time of changing sword into plowshares for the Gospel preaching for salvation. It has passed and Stan has been loosened. It is a war between two nations, two kingdoms, and two brothers once again. In other words, Satan is out to deceive the nations again after all Elect has been secured.

Matthew 10:34
  • "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Christ was not talking about a literal, physical warfare, but spiritual war where the people who are not of God would be at odds against the people who are of God. And whosoever would not take up the sword which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17; Hebews 4:12), is not worthy of God. For example, it's not talking about a literal war, and this is not talking about a literal peace or peace between earthly nations.

The believers are represented as the chosen, the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Jews, the holy nation, the people of the kingdom of Christ. And the unbelievers are represented spiritually as the reprobates, the nation of gentiles, the kingdom of Satan. This is one Holy nation and kingdom against the unholy nation and the kingdom of Satan. Get it?! This is the war spoken of in the preceding verse, not war between literal nations or people. Spiritual war and rumors of wars between spiritual people, nations and kingdoms. Selah!

We should not be surprised to see battles raging within God's congregations between Elect and Professed Christians as well as false prophts and christs today but those must take place before Christ returns. It is only the beginning of sorrow for the Church is going to be judged by God soon for her unfaithfulness.

Selah!
 
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Jamdoc

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It seems that you do not understand what Jesus said in Matthew 24:6-9 because it is referring to New Testament congregation of Israel the church AFTER Satan is loosened. It will be a time (probably now) when it is brother against brother, kingdom against kingdom, nation against nation. It is a symbolic illustration of SPIRITUAL WAREFARE where those ruled by one king (Satan) are adversarial to those ruled by another king (Jesus). It is not the time of changing sword into plowshares for the Gospel preaching for salvation. It has passed and Stan has been loosened. It is a war between two nations, two kingdoms, and two brothers once again. In other words, Satan is out to deceive the nations again after all Elect has been secured.

Matthew 10:34
  • "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Christ was not talking about a literal, physical warfare, but spiritual war where the people who are not of God would be at odds against the people who are of God. And whosoever would not take up the sword which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17; Hebews 4:12), is not worthy of God. For example, it's not talking about a literal war, and this is not talking about a literal peace or peace between earthly nations.

The believers are represented as the chosen, the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Jews, the holy nation, the people of the kingdom of Christ. And the unbelievers are represented spiritually as the reprobates, the nation of gentiles, the kingdom of Satan. This is one Holy nation and kingdom against the unholy nation and the kingdom of Satan. Get it?! This is the war spoken of in the preceding verse, not war between literal nations or people. Spiritual war and rumors of wars between spiritual people, nations and kingdoms. Selah!

We should not be surprised to see battles raging within God's congregations between Elect and Professed Christians as well as false prophts and christs today but those must take place before Christ returns. It is only the beginning of sorrow for the Church is going to be judged by God soon for her unfaithfulness.

Selah!
Jesus used the term, nations, and then kingdoms Earthly terms.
and then gave a picture of people being imprisoned and martyred for their beliefs in Christ, hated by ALL NATIONS for His name's sake.
He was in fact talking about a state of the world.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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First thing Amillennialists have said to me that doesn't fit: Isaiah 2 is about this current age, not a future age, or they may say it's about the eternal state, I've heard both from Amillenialists.

Isaiah 2

Now first off this can't be the eternal state, because as we'll see it conflicts with Jeremiah 31 which I'll discuss later as the 2nd thing. This is a period of time where people will make pilgrimages to Jerusalem to learn about the Lord, Jeremiah 31 has no more teaching about the Lord because everyone will already know all about Him.

Obviously this is not this current age, they're talking about nations not the church before someone claims it's within the church..
it isn't the eternal state because the new earth they never will have had weapons to refashion into other tools.

and next.. Jeremiah 31

and I've heard Amillennialists say this is fulfilled now, but the great commission absolutely trainwrecks this idea because the Lord is talking about a future where evangelism won't be happening because everyone will already have been evangelized. It can ONLY be the eternal state. Why do amillennialists claim this is now?

Both Isaiah 2 and Jeremiah 31 are not this current age
and they can't be the same age simultaneously as the eternal state/new earth.

Isaiah 2 fits a Millennial Kingdom on Earth, and Jeremiah 31 fits an eternal state on a new earth. But they contradict if applied to the same age, and neither fit this age at all.
One must define " New Covenant ". It is either established by Jesus Christ of Nazareth by His Blood or it is an unknown covenant yet to be unvelied. I choose the former because He said so.
Luke 24
14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. 21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. 22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” 23 And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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First thing Amillennialists have said to me that doesn't fit: Isaiah 2 is about this current age, not a future age, or they may say it's about the eternal state, I've heard both from Amillenialists.

Isaiah 2

Now first off this can't be the eternal state, because as we'll see it conflicts with Jeremiah 31 which I'll discuss later as the 2nd thing. This is a period of time where people will make pilgrimages to Jerusalem to learn about the Lord, Jeremiah 31 has no more teaching about the Lord because everyone will already know all about Him.

Obviously this is not this current age, they're talking about nations not the church before someone claims it's within the church..
it isn't the eternal state because the new earth they never will have had weapons to refashion into other tools.

and next.. Jeremiah 31

and I've heard Amillennialists say this is fulfilled now, but the great commission absolutely trainwrecks this idea because the Lord is talking about a future where evangelism won't be happening because everyone will already have been evangelized. It can ONLY be the eternal state. Why do amillennialists claim this is now?

Both Isaiah 2 and Jeremiah 31 are not this current age
and they can't be the same age simultaneously as the eternal state/new earth.

Isaiah 2 fits a Millennial Kingdom on Earth, and Jeremiah 31 fits an eternal state on a new earth. But they contradict if applied to the same age, and neither fit this age at all.
You're making a lot of declarations in your post based on YOUR understanding of what these passages are about. But, Amillennialists do not interpret those passages the way you do. So, your arguments here are straw man arguments since they don't address the Amil understanding of those passages and instead only address your own understanding of those passages.

As for Isaiah 2:2-4 that has to be referencing this current age if you believe in interpreting scripture with scripture. That passage is undeniably about "the last days". When do "the last days" take place according to scripture?

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Here, Peter was referencing the prophecy from Joel 2:28-32 regarding the last days and saying that the prophecy had already been starting to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost long ago. So, the last days had already begun back then.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.

In this passage, Peter indicated that the last days wold be a time during which scoffers would come scoffing at the promise of Christ's second coming. So, that shows that the last days lead up to the second coming of Christ. Obviously, no one will be scoffing at the promise of His second coming after it actually happens. So, the last days refer generally to the time between the first and second coming of Christ.

What you often miss is the symbolism in Old Testament passages (and in Revelation). When you take those so literally the way you do, it's no wonder that you can't understand what they really mean. But, you taken passages like that so literally results in contradicting other passages. Your literal interpretation of Isaiah 2:2-4 causes you to conclude that it's talking about a time period AFTER the return of Christ which contradicts the fact that scripture teaches the last days occur BEFORE the return of Christ.

As for Jeremiah 31:31-34, that passage is quoted in Hebrews 8:6-13 as applying to the new covenant which was put into effect long ago by the blood of Christ, so I don't know how you can try to say that it doesn't apply to the current age.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I'm going to refute that entire novel with just a few verses
Matthew 24


Doesn't sound like Isaiah 2 to me.
and Isaiah 2 was talking about nations not fighting nations. Internalizing that to just be "in the church" doesn't fit with the text. It doesn't mention only in the congregation, it talks nations. Entire ethnic groups.
That's your assumption. But, this is what happens when people interpret things so hyper-literally the way you do. Let's put your method of interpretation to the test. I just thought of one example because I just posted this passage in another post.

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

So, Peter was quoting from Joel 2:28 here and applying it to what was happening on the day of Pentecost. The prophecy from Joel says "God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people". If we interpret this the way you interpret passages like Isaiah 2:2-4, we would have to conclude that it's saying God will pour out His Spirit on literally all people. But, we know that is not what it means. It's only talking about all believers.

So, Isaiah 2 should be understood similarly. It's not talking about literally all nations and people not fighting anymore. It's talking about the effect the gospel has on believers. It brings us peace and leads us to love God and all people.


Isaiah 2 says Nation won't rise against Nation
Jesus says Nation will rise against nation.

both are true, thus, they are not simultaneous in the same time period. Jesus said that this would happen in the future from their current temporal vantage point.
But, as I indicated in my other post to you, Isaiah 2:2-4 is about "the last days" and scripture indicates that "the last days" is a reference generally to the time period between the first and second coming of Christ. But, you place the timing of it after the second coming of Christ, which contradicts what other passages indicate about the timing of the last days.
 
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Jamdoc

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One must define " New Covenant ". It is either established by Jesus Christ of Nazareth by His Blood or it is an unknown covenant yet to be unvelied. I choose the former because He said so.
Luke 24
14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. 21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. 22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” 23 And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.
Correct there is a new covenant currently, but evangelism is kind of central to our lives right now so Jeremiah 31's description of us not needing to evangelize because everyone will know the Lord is what I'm talking about not being fulfilled currently.

and that goes to @Spiritual Jew as well. God declares that people won't evangelize anymore when this is fulfilled. There won't be a point, everyone will know the Lord when it is fulfilled.
 
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Timtofly

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But the "context" is the last days (which is the whole New Testament period according to scripture) and the establishment of God's kingdom
Well the last days could mean the last 1,092,445 days out of 2,555,000 days. It could mean the last 3 days out of a 7 day week. But the end still won't be until that last day of the 2,555,000 days. Do you even know which day we are on?
 
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TribulationSigns

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Well the last days could mean the last 1,092,445 days out of 2,555,000 days. It could mean the last 3 days out of a 7 day week. But the end still won't be until that last day of the 2,555,000 days. Do you even know which day we are on?

Where in the Scripture that God told you to count the days of the Last days?!? That is not how Scripture to understand this way. So it must be another speculation on your part.
 
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Timtofly

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Where in the Scripture that God told you to count the days of the Last days?!? That is not how Scripture to understand this way. So it must be another speculation on your part.
Psalm 90
 
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TribulationSigns

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Not good enough.

Please show me exactly which verse(s) in Psalms 90 you believe we can count how many last days in God's prophecies. Show me and be prepared to explain it to see if you know what you talk about.
 
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Timtofly

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Not good enough.

Please show me exactly which verse(s) in Psalms 90 you believe we can count how many last days in God's prophecies. Show me and be prepared to explain it to see if you know what you talk about.
I was not counting the last days. I was counting all the days of creation. We are supposed to be aware and number our days. The 4th commandment tells us to Remember the Sabbath day. Why? Because God created the world in 6 days. He gave Adam 6 days of punishment, but the 7th day is the reprieve from Judgment. Out of 7 days, 4 days were already in the past at the first coming of Jesus. We are in the last 3 days since the Cross. For all the long diatribes you post telling us what you think Scripture states, time should be just as important as any of those. You asked for any verse in Scripture that talked about counting the days, as if none could be found. Psalm 90 talks about counting time.
 
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