America Was Founded On Christian Principles

[Teilhard]

Western philosophies include Roman and Greek influences. The political philosophies that undergird the US government and constitution were founded in the Renaissance which saw a great surge in rediscovering classic philosophers like Plato. It is impossible to separate "Western" from pagan Romans and Greeks.

Now you could argue that christian society in resource rich Europe allowed for an economy where intellectuals could sit around and think instead of toil away in the fields. However, pretending that the Renaissance was a movement based on christian principles alone would be ignoring massive amounts of history. The Renaissance saw the emergence of secular and humanist thought, and it also produce the Deist movement that many of the US founders belonged to.

Sure. I would only add that what we interpret as "Christian" was influenced by Roman and Greek thought from the very beginning. It is very hard to disentangle them.

 

[Teilhard]

This thread is about America being founded on Christian principals, not how we were politically governed at the time nor about colonies nor about freedom. Here is the relevant part of the Mayflower Compact that you didn't cherry pick to avoid stating:

"Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience."

That identifies the goal of the Mayflower settlers--who were religious dissidents trying to establish a separatist colony.

We give them a lot of attention now, but they really did not have a lot of influence.

 

[South Bound]

Ever read the Mayflower Compact?

Mayflower Compact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Revisionists limit our Founding historical documents to the Constitution. They do not accept anything else.

...except for, you know, one out of context sentence from the Treaty of Tripoli.

Showing them the Mayflower Compact, various court decisions, state constitutions, etc, and their reflection of the influences of Christianity on our Republic will fall on deaf ears.

They would rather be ignorant and believe a revisionist lie, than to read primary source documents and learn the truth directly from the source.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Revisionists limit our Founding historical documents to the Constitution. They do not accept anything else.

...except for, you know, one out of context sentence from the Treaty of Tripoli.

Showing them the Mayflower Compact, various court decisions, state constitutions, etc, and their reflection of the influences of Christianity on our Republic will fall on deaf ears.

They would rather be ignorant and believe a revisionist lie, than to read primary source documents and learn the truth directly from the source.

The reason we reference the Constitution is because that is the only document that really matters. It is the only document that legally defines the government of the US.

So if our government has any founding principles that are inherently Christian, that is where you would find them.

Of course, there is no mention of Christianity as inspiration for the Constitution.

That most of the Founders were Christian doesn't really matter either. They were almost all strictly secularists and that is the type of government they founded. A strictly secular one.

We win.

[/thread]

 

[South Bound]

The reason we reference the Constitution is because that is the only document that really matters. It is the only document that legally defines the government of the US.

Good. I guess that means you'll stop quoting the out of context sentence from the Treaty of Tripoli.

So if our government has any founding principles that are inherently Christian, that is where you would find them.

Of course, there is no mention of Christianity as inspiration for the Constitution.

The Constitution doesn't mention Christianity because it isn't a religious document. That doesn't mean the things in it are not influenced by Christian teaching, as evidenced by the many examples I've provided.

That most of the Founders were Christian doesn't really matter either.

So, in all of their years of Christianity, and in spite of their own writings describing their philosophy, they weren't influenced by Christianity at all?

They were almost all strictly secularists and that is the type of government they founded. A strictly secular one.

Nobody is claiming America is a theocracy. Only that the historical writings of our Founders show that they were influenced by Christianity.

We win.

But you don't win. You just remain ignorant because you ignore history.

We're the ones who have examples to show Christianity behind our founding. You don't have anything but one out of context sentence to show that it isn't.

For instance, in my signature, you see a source that quotes John Adams as saying that Christianity is the influential philosophy behind the foundation of our republic.

You can't refute that. You haven't even tried. You just ignore it.

You say we have to accept that we're "not in any sense founded on the Christianity religion" because treaties are the law of the land. But so are Supreme Court decisions, as we were all reminded after Obamacare. And yet, not even once have you addressed the SCOTUS opinion in the Trinity decision, even after admitting that it has the same legal weight as the Treaty of Tripoli.

You said that the 1st Commandment contradicts the 1st Amendment, even after I explained why that claim is a categorization fallacy and even after providing numerous scriptural examples that God did allow people to worship other gods. You ignored it.

Literally, the only two tools in your bag are to just repeat one out of context sentence from the Treaty of Tripoli and to ignore every bit of evidence shown to you and pretend you were never shown.

I've cited dozens of Bible verses, numerous writings of the Founders, and two SCOTUS decisions. The closest any of you ever came to addressing anything I said, other than just to falsely claim I never gave examples, was to say that Montesquieu - and, by extension, the Founders who cited him as an influence - was wrong to cite Isaiah 33:22 as a foundation for three co-equal branches of government because God is only one God, as though having three branches of the same government make it three governments.

So you can sit around and claim you've won all you like, but the bottom line is that all you've done is display your ignorance of history for everyone here to see.

 

[TheBear]

The OP as stated is truth.

The OP asked a question. It made no statements, true, false, or otherwise.

The OP content rejects that historical truth as it's premise, imo.

The OP makes no statements of rejection or acceptance. The OP asked a question, nothing more.

It's much like bait and switch to me.

See above.

 

[USincognito]

Ever read the Mayflower Compact?

Mayflower Compact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Mayflower Compact didn't establish the United States.
The Mayflower Compact didn't establish the only English colony in North America.
The Mayflower Compact didn't establish the first English colony in North America.

Citing the Mayflower Compact is on par with citing the charter Columbus was provided by the Spanish Crown.

eta - just because I think it's cool. A photo of Plymouth Rock taken by my parents in 1967.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Good. I guess that means you'll stop quoting the out of context sentence from the Treaty of Tripoli.

When did I ever quote the Treaty of Tripoli? I think you might have me mistaken for someone else.

The Constitution doesn't mention Christianity because it isn't a religious document. That doesn't mean the things in it are not influenced by Christian teaching, as evidenced by the many examples I've provided.

But we've shown you that most of those examples aren't even inherently Christian or specific to the Christian faith. And it doesn't mention Christianity because Christianity is not where they drew inspiration from for our government.

The most important legal document in US history that outlines the government of the US makes no mention of Christianity and yet, you believe that Christianity is what inspired the founding of the nation?

You would think they would have made some kind of reference to it in the outline of our government....

So, in all of their years of Christianity, and in spite of their own writings describing their philosophy, they weren't influenced by Christianity at all?

The question isn't whether the Founders were Christian, the question is what founding principles of the US i.e. Freedom of speech, religion, press, right to bear arms, protection against unlawful search and seizure, equal protection of the law... etc. Where in Christianity did these ideas come from?

The answer is, they didn't.

Nobody is claiming America is a theocracy. Only that the historical writings of our Founders show that they were influenced by Christianity.

Then why are you so concerned with labeling our secular nation as "Christian?"

But you don't win. You just remain ignorant because you ignore history.

I wouldn't be the first.

We're the ones who have examples to show Christianity behind our founding. You don't have anything but one out of context sentence to show that it isn't.

The First Amendment is all one needs to prove we weren't founded upon Christian principles. God's biggest rule is that you follow the right God. Our most important liberty is the right to follow any God. That is a direct contradiction to an essential Christian principle.

 

[USincognito]

When did I ever quote the Treaty of Tripoli? I think you might have me mistaken for someone else.

Apparently he thinks that every atheist, when discussing church state issues, starts with and has nothing more than the Treaty of Tripoli..

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Revisionists limit our Founding historical documents to the Constitution. They do not accept anything else.

...except for, you know, one out of context sentence from the Treaty of Tripoli.

Showing them the Mayflower Compact, various court decisions, state constitutions, etc, and their reflection of the influences of Christianity on our Republic will fall on deaf ears.

They would rather be ignorant and believe a revisionist lie, than to read primary source documents and learn the truth directly from the source.

For goodness sake, who has denied the influences of Christianity? NO ONE! What is at issue here is the concept of Christian Principles.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Nobody is claiming America is a theocracy. Only that the historical writings of our Founders show that they were influenced by Christianity.

...

For instance, in my signature, you see a source that quotes John Adams as saying that Christianity is the influential philosophy behind the foundation of our republic.

So what?

Seriously. Who in this thread has ever claimed that the Founders didn't have personal religious opinions? Who in this thread has ever claimed that they were not influenced by religion? Everyone has been influenced by it in one way or another! That doesn't entitle you to the claim that "Christian Principles" were instrumental in the founding of the nation, especially given that you can't even mention what those principles are!

So you can sit around and claim you've won all you like, but the bottom line is that all you've done is display your ignorance of history for everyone here to see.

Considering that you don't even understand the question being asked, the irony here is delicious.

 

[drjean]

I often wonder whether those who post here want to know truth, or just be supported in what they prefer to choose to know, whether truth or not.

However, if one searches properly, one can find the basis upon which it is said agreeing with the OP. If one does only searching for "America not based upon Christian Principles", then of course that's all the person will find, those blogs and such that are against the notion.

Here's a good spot I found just this time:

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.


All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."


In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all

Christianity and America | Faith of Our Fathers

A little more research and one will find how many of those first colleges were built by founding fathers who were also ministers! Most of the Ivy League ones were Christian principled.

 

[morningstar2651]

I often wonder whether those who post here want to know truth, or just be supported in what they prefer to choose to know, whether truth or not.

However, if one searches properly, one can find the basis upon which it is said agreeing with the OP. If one does only searching for "America not based upon Christian Principles", then of course that's all the person will find, those blogs and such that are against the notion.

Here's a good spot I found just this time: Christianity and America | Faith of Our Fathers

A little more research and one will find how many of those first colleges were built by founding fathers who were also ministers! Most of the Ivy League ones were Christian principled.

Okay...and?

Does that in any way make the United States of America based on Christian principles rather than secular principles?

So far, the overwhelming evidence has been in favor of the nation being founded on secular principles like human rights and freedom of religion, rather than Christian principles such as damnation and salvation through belief in the one true god to the exclusion of all others.

 

[CaDan]

I often wonder whether those who post here want to know truth, or just be supported in what they prefer to choose to know, whether truth or not.

However, if one searches properly, one can find the basis upon which it is said agreeing with the OP. If one does only searching for "America not based upon Christian Principles", then of course that's all the person will find, those blogs and such that are against the notion.

Here's a good spot I found just this time: Christianity and America | Faith of Our Fathers

A little more research and one will find how many of those first colleges were built by founding fathers who were also ministers! Most of the Ivy League ones were Christian principled.

I would not make that argument unless you are willing to concede that the slow-motion genocide of race-based chattel slavery is a Christian principle as well. Because that is a founding principle of America.

 

[South Bound]

So far, the overwhelming evidence has been in favor of the nation being founded on secular principles

What "evidence" have you provided? So far, I haven't seen anything except one sentence from the Arabic translation of a treaty that was later superseded by another treaty.

What more do you need than this?

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now, where in the bible would I find this?

Oh... Thats right.... I won't.

Where in the rest of the document is Christianity mentioned?

Oh that's right.... It isn't.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. I've addressed each of these things numerous times, both citing scripture to show you where God does not prevent people from worshipping other gods, to explaining to you that the Constitution is a legal document, not a religious document, and asking you to explain why you insist on limiting the 400 year history of America to one document when you insist on citing extra-Biblical documents.

***** STAFF EDIT *****

 

[CaDan]

The whole "Congress ordered {INSERT HUGE NUMBER HERE} Bibles" story has been repeatedly debunked.

The Continental Congress never voted on the proposal. See Worthington C. Ford, ed., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, vol. 8, (Washington D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1907), 734.

 

[drjean]

I would not make that argument unless you are willing to concede that the slow-motion genocide of race-based chattel slavery is a Christian principle as well. Because that is a founding principle of America.

Not necessarily so. That was a big argument among the Signers--abolishment of the slave trade...and Jefferson originally wrote it in but it was removed by a few, when South Carolina and Georgia only rebelled, in the final document.

As for God and slavery... what one might read as slavery then is a far cry from slavery as "we" know it in these latter centuries. Many in the NT times were "bond slaves"...and treated quite well.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

What "evidence" have you provided? So far, I haven't seen anything except one sentence from the Arabic translation of a treaty that was later superseded by another treaty.

What more do you need than this?

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now, where in the bible would I find this?

Oh... Thats right.... I won't.

Where in the rest of the document is Christianity mentioned?

Oh that's right.... It isn't.

 

[drjean]

The whole "Congress ordered {INSERT HUGE NUMBER HERE} Bibles" story has been repeatedly debunked.

The Continental Congress never voted on the proposal. See Worthington C. Ford, ed., Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789, vol. 8, (Washington D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1907), 734.

And I suppose church was never held on Sundays in the Capitol, and the military band never provided the music either?

 

[drjean]

I refer back to a previous post that may have been missed. The information under each name is what THEY stated... and are very clear about upon what our nation is founded.

One of the founding principles is the Redeeming Power of Christ. You don't find that in any other faith nor religion. __________________






WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

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[SIZE=+1]John Adams​

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.[SIZE=-2]1[/SIZE]
Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.[SIZE=-2]2[/SIZE]
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE]
Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be![SIZE=-2]4[/SIZE]
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=+1]Josiah Bartlett ​

MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.[SIZE=-2]15[/SIZE]
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http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN15
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