Am I to be taken?

[ALoveDivine]

can you provide me with reference
to earthly language applied in scripture in places that tongues is mentioned in the Bible throughout?

Acts 2:4-8, 1 Corinthians 4:9-12

In both these passages it is clear that human language is what is being referred to. I read your explanation for the passage in Acts, but quite frankly its not convincing. The plain reading of the text indicates that the tongues were human languages unknown to the speaker.

About the tongues of angels. Paul never says in that passage that he does speak in tongues of angels, he says if he speaks in tongues of men and angels. This is an important distinction. He is rebuking the Corinthians for their desire for spiritual experience above love and building up of the brethren. One of the gifts was tongues, which was multiple languages unknown to the speaker.

He's saying, basically, even if I speak in all these tongues, even those of angels, and have not love, I am nothing. This is hyperbole, an exaggeration to make a point. Another example in the same passage is where he talks about giving away all he has and giving up his body to be burned. He is obviously speaking of extremes to make the point about the supremacy of love. Nothing in the passage indicates that speaking in some angelic language was a reality experienced by anyone, including himself.

Nowhere does he say that anyone actually speaks in tongues of angels. Further, in every single instance in scripture that an angel speaks, it is in a human language. So if this is the only reference available to speaking in some unknown angelic language, then your case is quite frankly utterly unconvincing. If this is a real spiritual gift I'd imagine there would be many other verses you could point to. As it is, all the references to tongues I've found refer to the gift as speaking multiple unknown human languages, as is plainly delineated in the scriptures I sighted above.

 

[now faith]

Acts 2:4-8, 1 Corinthians 4:9-12

In both these passages it is clear that human language is what is being referred to. I read your explanation for the passage in Acts, but quite frankly its not convincing. The plain reading of the text indicates that the tongues were human languages unknown to the speaker.

About the tongues of angels. Paul never says in that passage that he does speak in tongues of angels, he says if he speaks in tongues of men and angels. This is an important distinction. He is rebuking the Corinthians for their desire for spiritual experience above love and building up of the brethren. One of the gifts was tongues, which was multiple languages unknown to the speaker.

He's saying, basically, even if I speak in all these tongues, even those of angels, and have not love, I am nothing. This is hyperbole, an exaggeration to make a point. Another example in the same passage is where he talks about giving away all he has and giving up his body to be burned. He is obviously speaking of extremes to make the point about the supremacy of love. Nothing in the passage indicates that speaking in some angelic language was a reality experienced by anyone, including himself.

Nowhere does he say that anyone actually speaks in tongues of angels. Further, in every single instance in scripture that an angel speaks, it is in a human language. So if this is the only reference available to speaking in some unknown angelic language, then your case is quite frankly utterly unconvincing. If this is a real spiritual gift I'd imagine there would be many other verses you could point to. As it is, all the references to tongues I've found refer to the gift as speaking multiple unknown human languages, as is plainly delineated in the scriptures I sighted above.

I respect your point on tongues in general, but even if they are earthly language ,the bible clearly lists them as one of the gifts of the spirit,
and I can find nothing in the Bible they are not for today. You mentioned you believe in the gift of healing, I just do not believe we can pick and choose. The measure of our faith will dictate our spiritual walk and what our gifts are. What our opinion is does not control Gods reality. But this is age old in debate , maybe one day we will set down in paradise and continue it. God bless

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I respect your point on tongues in general, but even if they are earthly language ,the bible clearly lists them as one of the gifts of the spirit,
and I can find nothing in the Bible they are not for today. You mentioned you believe in the gift of healing, I just do not believe we can pick and choose. The measure of our faith will dictate our spiritual walk and what our gifts are. What our opinion is does not control Gods reality. But this is age old in debate , maybe one day we will set down in paradise and continue it. God bless

Sure they are for today but in what context is its purpose. The Holy spirit gave it on the day of pentecost to allow the apostles to be able to communicate the gospel to the various Jews which spoke all different languages. The gifts of the spirit is for the spreading of the gospel and the edification of the church.

The gifts of the spirit are never for the edification of one's self although this may also result as a secondary effect. The belief that the gift of tongues is a special prayer language between a person and God just lends itself to self edification. So its not that at all.

People have testified about suddenly being able to speak specific African dialects when necessary to spread the message to those people. That is a modern manifestation of the gift and not the confusion that you hear in certain churches.

 

[now faith]

Sure they are for today but in what context is its purpose. The Holy spirit gave it on the day of pentecost to allow the apostles to be able to communicate the gospel to the various Jews which spoke all different languages. The gifts of the spirit is for the spreading of the gospel and the edification of the church.

The gifts of the spirit are never for the edification of one's self although this may also result as a secondary effect. The belief that the gift of tongues is a special prayer language between a person and God just lends itself to self edification. So its not that at all.

People have testified about suddenly being able to speak specific African dialects when necessary to spread the message to those people. That is a modern manifestation of the gift and not the confusion that you hear in certain churches.

Amen ,I recall Arthur Blesset ,on one of his missions being able to teach Christ to a African tribe. They did not speak English but somehow he got the word to them and many came to the lord as a result. It was through the Holy Spirit and Gods will they hear, one thing is for sure the Holy Spirit will not be exulted over Christ. In some churches they preach more about the Holy Spirit ,than Christ.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Amen ,I recall Arthur Blesset ,on one of his missions being able to teach Christ to a African tribe. They did not speak English but somehow he got the word to them and many came to the lord as a result. It was through the Holy Spirit and Gods will they hear, one thing is for sure the Holy Spirit will not be exulted over Christ. In some churches they preach more about the Holy Spirit ,than Christ.

Most churches are trying to push the idea that you must have some sort of an extraordinary experience to show you the spirit is in your life. That's wrong. The sign of the spirit in your life is the fruit of the spirit.

According to the bible, there are many spiritual gifts of the spirit given to the church. Everyone has different gifts but every single person in whom the spirit dwells must have the fruit of the spirit. Why do they keep pushing the idea that unless you speak in tongues you haven't gotten to a certain level?

The outward demonstrations and emotional experiences can be easily counterfeited by Satan. In the last says, Satan will use every form of deception there is. The devil can have the best gospel singers, best musicians, liveliest "church" services, most "holy spirit experiences" as a counterfeit. One thing the devil cannot have is the truth. He know's it but can't preach the whole truth.

 

[ALoveDivine]

People have testified about suddenly being able to speak specific African dialects when necessary to spread the message to those people.

Amen! I've never actually heard of this, but if its true, then praise God! Certainly tongues may still be in existence today, one thing I'm sure of is that God will give spiritual gifts as he sees fit.

 

[asiyreh]

So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? 1 Corinthians 14:9

NowFaith seriously, I know what you experience at those churches feels great. Tingling all over, ecstatic all that happy happy stuff. I used to get it all the time reading the gnostic gospels. I know this is a bit weird but it even felt at times like something was tickling the back of my hair. I know weird, but true, and yes a little creepy now I think about it.

Anyways The holy Spirit's essential purpose for humanity is to convince you of sin and to bring you to righteousness through Christ. It's not happy, it's not dancee, it's not tingley. He's a very sobering spirit tbh. Sometimes I wish he was more tinglee but he's not... he is comforting though when you're low, in an inner kind of wholesome way (bad description but it's the best I can manage).

Now you'll hear peps on here all the time speaking about the Unforgivable Sin! Have I done it? I have done it? Is there a way out of it? What is it!
Now it's a topic of discussion always has been, always will be. I can't tell you what it is for definite. I have my suspicions...

Please note! I'm not going to say what Pentecostalism is doing is the Unforgivable Sin... not at all.

BUT...

What I will tell you is this.
How could someone know for definite that they have achieved this Unforgiveable Sin. Well IMHO one very good indicator would be if The Holy spirit stops trying to convict you of your Sin, stops trying to bring you to Christ, because at some point for some people, God probably will give them up to a reprobate mind.

How might Satan get people to stop listening to that convicting voice of the Holy spirit?
Well imagine for a second if he could devise the spiritual version of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalalalala at the top of your voice.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? 1 Corinthians 14:9

NowFaith seriously, I know what you experience at those churches feels great. Tingling all over, ecstatic all that happy happy stuff. I used to get it all the time reading the gnostic gospels. I know this is a bit weird but it even felt at times like something was tickling the back of my hair. I know weird, but true, and yes a little creepy now I think about it.

Anyways The holy Spirit's essential purpose for humanity is to convince you of sin and to bring you to righteousness through Christ. It's not happy, it's not dancee, it's not tingley. He's a very sobering spirit tbh. Sometimes I wish he was more tinglee but he's not... he is comforting though when you're low, in an inner kind of wholesome way (bad description but it's the best I can manage).

Now you'll hear peps on here all the time speaking about the Unforgivable Sin! Have I done it? I have done it? Is there a way out of it? What is it!
Now it's a topic of discussion always has been, always will be. I can't tell you what it is for definite. I have my suspicions...

Please note! I'm not going to say what Pentecostalism is doing is the Unforgivable Sin... not at all.

BUT...

What I will tell you is this.
How could someone know for definite that they have achieved this Unforgiveable Sin. Well IMHO one very good indicator would be if The Holy spirit stops trying to convict you of your Sin, stops trying to bring you to Christ, because at some point for some people, God probably will give them up to a reprobate mind.

How might Satan get people to stop listening to that convicting voice of the Holy spirit?
Well imagine for a second if he could devise the spiritual version of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalalalala at the top of your voice.

Yes that's exactly it. You know you commit the unpardonable sin when you no longer feel guilty about anything which means the holy spirit has stopped speaking to you.

 

[now faith]

So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? 1 Corinthians 14:9

NowFaith seriously, I know what you experience at those churches feels great. Tingling all over, ecstatic all that happy happy stuff. I used to get it all the time reading the gnostic gospels. I know this is a bit weird but it even felt at times like something was tickling the back of my hair. I know weird, but true, and yes a little creepy now I think about it.

Anyways The holy Spirit's essential purpose for humanity is to convince you of sin and to bring you to righteousness through Christ. It's not happy, it's not dancee, it's not tingley. He's a very sobering spirit tbh. Sometimes I wish he was more tinglee but he's not... he is comforting though when you're low, in an inner kind of wholesome way (bad description but it's the best I can manage).

Now you'll hear peps on here all the time speaking about the Unforgivable Sin! Have I done it? I have done it? Is there a way out of it? What is it!
Now it's a topic of discussion always has been, always will be. I can't tell you what it is for definite. I have my suspicions...

Please note! I'm not going to say what Pentecostalism is doing is the Unforgivable Sin... not at all.

BUT...

What I will tell you is this.
How could someone know for definite that they have achieved this Unforgiveable Sin. Well IMHO one very good indicator would be if The Holy spirit stops trying to convict you of your Sin, stops trying to bring you to Christ, because at some point for some people, God probably will give them up to a reprobate mind.

How might Satan get people to stop listening to that convicting voice of the Holy spirit?
Well imagine for a second if he could devise the spiritual version of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalalalala at the top of your voice.

To clarify I am a WOF follower, and I do not believe tounges are a condition of salvation. But I do not attempt to fit God into my comprehension , then teach it as gospel. Simply put I stand on what the word says and do not go from book to book taking reference out of context to force it into a doctorian.So many today in legal churches are preaching convict and challenge to their sheep, and they get sheared in every service , it is a works based lesson out of the pastors own since of holiness. They skip a lot of the new testament ,try to combine the law and grace into a hodgepodge of nonsense. How do they put their conditions on what God can do? This is a doctorian that came out of the Cathloic church and is practiced in fundamental churches still today. The hot issue is tongues, it is used as a tool to do away with the gifts of the Spirit. The show barking mad men , women with their skirts over their head and so on.Then they have a tool to box the Holy Ghost into their mold. Satan has a field day in those church's with gossip sorrow poverty sickness and sexual miss conduct. The Holy Spirit does convict and draw sinners. But that is not his only role, Christ called him the comforter, he brings joy and knowlage, he guides us in Gods will, he gives us discernment over unclean spirits, he dwells in everyone who has accepted Christ, and is God in spirit. As far as being only for the Apostles, we are all Apostles of Christ that walk not after flesh but in the spirit. If you read Ephesians it will enlighten your understanding of spiritual knowlage, but only if you read it without pre conceived notions to refute other beliefs, as well as the rest of the Bible. The word is not a battle book against anyone out side your church, it is the living word and will bring you closer to Christ by the renewing of your mind.

 

[now faith]

Amen! I've never actually heard of this, but if its true, then praise God! Certainly tongues may still be in existence today, one thing I'm sure of is that God will give spiritual gifts as he sees fit.

I seriously have not been able to know how Arthor Blessitt has endured walking the earth but God has gifted him to be a great Wittness and Evangelist. Just by seeing the cross he pulls many have come to the lord, some were about to commit suicide and looked up at that cross and were saved. His preaching is simple Jesus Jesus Jesus!

 

[now faith]

Most churches are trying to push the idea that you must have some sort of an extraordinary experience to show you the spirit is in your life. That's wrong. The sign of the spirit in your life is the fruit of the spirit.

According to the bible, there are many spiritual gifts of the spirit given to the church. Everyone has different gifts but every single person in whom the spirit dwells must have the fruit of the spirit. Why do they keep pushing the idea that unless you speak in tongues you haven't gotten to a certain level?

The outward demonstrations and emotional experiences can be easily counterfeited by Satan. In the last says, Satan will use every form of deception there is. The devil can have the best gospel singers, best musicians, liveliest "church" services, most "holy spirit experiences" as a counterfeit. One thing the devil cannot have is the truth. He know's it but can't preach the whole truth.

well our church is non denomataion we have great music and worship, cancer seems to have a habit of disappearing in our congregation, our preacher is not a feel good teacher he tells it like it is from our King James Bibles, we don't have crazy out burst rolling in the isles. But we do believe in all the gifts and abide by Paul's teaching to Corinth on tongues, so we experience The Holy Spirit lift our hands and praise God and leave there better off than when we showed up.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

well our church is non denomataion we have great music and worship, cancer seems to have a habit of disappearing in our congregation, our preacher is not a feel good teacher he tells it like it is from our King James Bibles, we don't have crazy out burst rolling in the isles. But we do believe in all the gifts and abide by Paul's teaching to Corinth on tongues, so we experience The Holy Spirit lift our hands and praise God and leave there better off than when we showed up.

So when tongues are being spoken in your congregation is there ever an interpreter?

 

[now faith]

Sure they are for today but in what context is its purpose. The Holy spirit gave it on the day of pentecost to allow the apostles to be able to communicate the gospel to the various Jews which spoke all different languages. The gifts of the spirit is for the spreading of the gospel and the edification of the church.

The gifts of the spirit are never for the edification of one's self although this may also result as a secondary effect. The belief that the gift of tongues is a special prayer language between a person and God just lends itself to self edification. So its not that at all.

People have testified about suddenly being able to speak specific African dialects when necessary to spread the message to those people. That is a modern manifestation of the gift and not the confusion that you hear in certain churches.

I get what you mean, but I still wonder what language the Angels speak. We know that God has spoken this world into existence, wonder what language he spoke to Adam? And inturn what did Adam teach his children? One thing you might Google is a preacher and others singing and speaking in tongues in a scientific study, they had a brain scan while speaking in tongues, and they found that their cognitive thought activity was not responding and it was as if they were not speaking in their own accord. In other words it was proven they were not faking the experience because their brain was not active in that area.

 

[ALoveDivine]

they had a brain scan while speaking in tongues, and they found that their cognitive thought activity was not responding

Buddhist meditation, when observed under a brain scan, also shows a loss of cognitive function. This does not mean it is divine. This is just what happens when one gets into a euphoric and meditative state.

The tongues thing going on in the charasmatic movement is, in my estimation, euphoric social self-delusion, fueled by the same underlying psychological principle that drives people to obey a hypnotist. In fact, many Charasmatics encourage people to stop thinking to let the tongues happen. This is the same things hypnotists do, encouraging people to put their thinking aside and go with their feelings. This opens the human mind to all kinds of influence.

These congregations use bad theology to convince their followers that they need to attain some higher level of spirituality (though the bible says we are complete in Christ). Then they claim that speaking in tongues is evidence of this having happened. Everyone wants that higher spiritual level right? Then there is a religious ritual where critical thinking is discouraged, a charasmatic pastor leads the ritual encouraging the babbling, and, what do you know, everyone starts babbling and going crazy. It may as well be a hypnosis act.

I know how this works because I've studied these principles, I used to be a magician (Illusionist, not occult stuff) and I'm very familiar with taking advantage of psychological tendencies to elicit a response. I'm not saying that these pastors are conning their congregations, no, I think everyone is deluding themselves. Again, with all things, test it by the word of God. I think we've established in this thread that there is no good biblical evidence to support the modern Charasmatic/Pentecostal practice of 'tongues'.

Also, it is worth mentioning that many pagan religions of the past and present pride themselves on euphoric and meditative experiences like tongues and outbusts of odd behavior. As Christians we must be VERY skeptical and VERY careful of these tendencies, because they are quite similiar to ancient pagan mysticism.

 

[now faith]

I have met people who will not go to church, do to some of those hardcore beliefs. They feel unsaved because they are taught if you do not speak in tongues your not complete. What I try to point out is that we can't lump all churches with the same lable, it creates division in the body of Christ. One example would be independent Baptist, some are so strict you are not allowed to ware shorts even in Florida , but my friend is a independent Pastor ,and nothing like that. He is a true Preacher that brings it to the pulpit no tongues though. My church same way great Preaching no tongues. But I have been criticized by Baptist preachers calling me one of those Charsmatics because my church is Nondenomational . I had a baptist Preacher stand there in front of me and pretend tongues laughing, he is clueless to think our church is the same as the others that go nuts. My fear for him was blaspheme of the Holy Spirt. I have been Bapist , my father was a great Bapist preacher, but I have found stupidity in all denomataion . WOF gets lumped in as well and I have found it to be the closest to the word of God

 

[ALoveDivine]

WOF gets lumped in as well and I have found it to be the closest to the word of God

I would urge you to be very careful of that movement, there is a lot of heresy there. The whole "name it and claim it" thing is based on an old pagan theology explained in the "secret" movie, which Oprah is quite the fan of. Not only that, but the prosperity teaching going on in that movement is false and very dangerous. We have all spiritual riches and spiritual blessings in Christ, but we are not promised worldly carnal riches and status. The only way anyone is going to have their 'best life now' is if they're going to Hell. I'm not saying everyone in this movement isn't saved, many are and are just confused, but I do believe that Satan is very active in these prosperity circles.

Why not just be a Christian? Why adhere to this WOF stuff? I also attend a nondenominational church. My church just preaches directly from the word of God and proclaims the gospel; Christ crucified for sinners. I would urge you brother to hold fast to the essentials of the faith of let go of this TBN, prosperity 'gospel' nonsense.

The real gospel is Christ crucified as a propitiation for sinners and raised for our justification, received by grace through faith alone. Is this what your church proclaims, or is it more about a promise for earthly riches and prosperity? Be careful because there are many false teachers out there who will lead many astray, as our Lord warns about.

John MacArthur Exposes Prosperity Gospel Heretics - YouTube

 

[asiyreh]

... we can't lump all churches with the same lable, it creates division in the body of Christ. One example would be independent Baptist, some are so strict you are not allowed to ware shorts even in Florida , but my friend is a independent Pastor ,and nothing like that. He is a true Preacher that brings it to the pulpit no tongues though. My church same way great Preaching no tongues. But I have been criticized by Baptist preachers calling me one of those Charsmatics because my church is Nondenomational . I had a baptist Preacher stand there in front of me and pretend tongues laughing, he is clueless to think our church is the same as the others that go nuts. My fear for him was blaspheme of the Holy Spirt. I have been Bapist , my father was a great Bapist preacher, but I have found stupidity in all denomataions.

So maybe there's a happy medium here somewhere? You've actually answered your own problem here Nowfaith. Read your own post again and consider it carefully, pray, there's much truth to be found here.

 

[now faith]

I would urge you to be very careful of that movement, there is a lot of heresy there. The whole "name it and claim it" thing is based on an old pagan theology explained in the "secret" movie, which Oprah is quite the fan of. Not only that, but the prosperity teaching going on in that movement is false and very dangerous. We have all spiritual riches and spiritual blessings in Christ, but we are not promised worldly carnal riches and status. The only way anyone is going to have their 'best life now' is if they're going to Hell. I'm not saying everyone in this movement isn't saved, many are and are just confused, but I do believe that Satan is very active in these prosperity circles.

Why not just be a Christian? Why adhere to this WOF stuff? I also attend a nondenominational church. My church just preaches directly from the word of God and proclaims the gospel; Christ crucified for sinners. I would urge you brother to hold fast to the essentials of the faith of let go of this TBN, prosperity 'gospel' nonsense.

The real gospel is Christ crucified as a propitiation for sinners and raised for our justification, received by grace through faith alone. Is this what your church proclaims, or is it more about a promise for earthly riches and prosperity? Be careful because there are many false teachers out there who will lead many astray, as our Lord warns about.

John MacArthur Exposes Prosperity Gospel Heretics - YouTube

No WOF is not based on the secrete , and Oprah did not start that belief, it is a form of witchcraft. WOF is core belief is faith in Christ , and living and walking in faith by his grace and the promise in the Word. MacArthurs teaching is to remove the grace that the blood provided from the Bible his version of the Bible replaces the term blood with death. This is false teaching without blood there can not be remission of sin. He is the pot calling the kettle black.People get confused with the claim it of teaching, WOF teaches us that Gods provision has already been done by way of the cross, it is much simpler than made out to be. If it is promised in the word we believe it. Romans 1 vs 17 For therein it is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith.

 

[now faith]

So maybe there's a happy medium here somewhere? You've actually answered your own problem here Nowfaith. Read your own post again and consider it carefully, pray, there's much truth to be found here.

I haven't had a problem to answer, just posting my observations.

 

[now faith]

“It was His death that was efficacious . . . not His blood . . . Christ did not bleed to death. The shedding of blood had nothing to do with bleeding . . . it simply means death . . . Nothing in His human blood saves . . . It is not His blood that I love . . . it is Him. It is not His bleeding that saved me, but His dying.”
John MacArthur. With this teaching why would any one listen to what he thinks about faith.