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Am I to be taken?

BrandonLewis

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I've read in the Bible before of those great masses of people who would receive the Holy Ghost, begin speaking in tongues, and forever changed. I've also heard testimony from people of feeling God instantaneously change their hearts and the Holy Spirit enter their bodies, and since that day they've remained changed Born-Again Christians.

I was raised Methodist, though I no longer agree with that church, and I've dealt with my own sins and troubles to this day since I decided to become a Christian, although I chose to do it for the wrong reason. I love God and I have a never quenched thirst for Jesus and the Holy Ghost to reside within me and change my heart. Is this alone with Holy Spirit residing within me? Or will I have a moment in which I am finally taken completely and wholly by the Holy Ghost? I don't feel born-again and I've never had that moment where I was taken by the Holy Ghost.

I know that I should probably ask my pastor, but I'm in the middle of transitioning between my parents' Methodist church and a Pentecostal. Thanks for answering, and may God bless you.
 

Nails74

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I was raised Methodist, though I no longer agree with that church, and I've dealt with my own sins and troubles to this day since I decided to become a Christian, although I chose to do it for the wrong reason.
Hi Brandon,

Do you know the Gospel?
 
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1watchman

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Receiving the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart as your Savior and Lord is essential to salvation (to be "born again" by the indwelling and sealing of the Spirit). Following the teachings of Jesus, laws and rules by God, and having some spiritual experience or feeling for salvation is not scriptural. The fact is: one either has the Lord Jesus in his/her heart or not (see 1 Jn. 5:10-13). I believe you can get the essence of what God has given for His Church at the BibleCounsel site (biblecounsel.homestead.com). Look up always, rather than listen to charismatic men to feel good. That is my perspective of God's Word.
 
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BrandonLewis said in post #1:

I've read in the Bible before of those great masses of people who would receive the Holy Ghost, begin speaking in tongues . . .

The Bible refers to believers getting Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, 10:44-46). Believers usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Lk. 11:13b) baptism, for it isn't usually automatically given to them the moment they become believers; that's why Paul asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2). Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Cor. 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are 1 of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-11,28, 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (Jas. 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they've come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it's no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at, e.g., a Pentecostal-type or charismatic-type congregation.

The Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10), which operate in believers who've received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, 11:15-16, 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Cor. 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when believers will become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 Jn. 3:2) will they no longer need the Spiritual gifts of prophecy, tongues, & the word of knowledge (1 Cor. 12:8,10). During the future tribulation (which will precede the 2nd coming: Mt. 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the 2 witnesses simply because it will involve prophesying & miracles (Rev. 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming (like the trib) hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today (within Pentecostal-type & charismatic-type congregations, which can be found in different denominations). God's Word commands believers to operate in the Spiritual gifts when believers come together (1 Cor. 14:26-31). So congregations today must be careful never to quench the Spirit (1 Thes. 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thes. 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:39). Tongues are 1 of the Spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Cor. 14:4-5,12,26). As was pointed out earlier, not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, 10:45-46), for tongues are 1 of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Cor. 12:28, 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8) while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Cor. 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Cor. 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, & angelic languages (1 Cor. 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they're prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Cor. 14:2,28) they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Cor. 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), to bless God & thank God (1 Cor. 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, & then Spiritually interpreted (1 Cor. 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God they're singing the "spiritual songs" which Paul distinguishes from psalms & hymns (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16).

Paul sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray & sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Cor. 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Sam. 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul prayed & sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Cor. 14:18-19). But re: church meetings, Paul sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: they aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there's someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only 3 people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:27). Everyone who's received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he can edify others (1 Cor. 14:12-13, 12:10b).
 
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timf

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You may want to consider the subject of "assurance of salvation". You will hear many differing views on this subject.

Satan has done a good job getting Christians to measure each others salvation and declare who is and isn't saved. Consider the following;

Jesus says that there will be many to whom he will say, "I never knew you". We also see Jesus telling the Pharisees, "you are of your father the devil". There have been, are, and will be people who are mistaken about their salvation and the status of their relationship with God.

The question becomes, "How can we be sure?"

The Bible says both that we can "know" we are saved (1John 5:13), and that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Corinthians 13:5). This is not a contradiction.The Bible tells us that there is uncertainty and can be certainty. The Bible also tells us to persevere. To the theologian this apparent ambiguity is something he must resolve and explain. As a result, there are many doctrines of various denominations that are promulgated more for their tidiness than their accuracy.

We might want to consider that the lack of Biblical specificity is not an error, but rather the desire of God that we derive our assurance of salvation directly from Him. God may want us unsure and ill at ease until we mature in faith and grow in the image of Christ and closer to Him.

Some religious experts offer measurement standards such as having been baptized, saying a particular prayer, having taken Jesus "into your heart", or made Jesus Lord of your life as the criteria to guarantee that one is saved.

If someone asks me if they are saved, I try to help them by using measurement criteria from the Bible. For example, the Bible is foolishness to those that are perishing, "Do you think the Bible is foolish?". The Bible says that people will know that we are Christians by the love we have for each other, "Do you have love for other Christians?" We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, "Do you discern His presence?" The Christian is supposed to be in a process of becoming like Jesus, "Are you becoming like Jesus?".

For the person who is not comforted by such questions, I suggest that he put more work into knowing his Savior, the Bible, and surrendering himself to Jesus. Often it is our worldly attachments and walking in the flesh that prevent us from growing closer to our Lord and thus able to draw certainty of salvation.

Our modern organizational religious systems have lost the personal touch. They will often tell someone to be assured because they have met the established criteria and are thus saved. The relational component of Christianity comes in when an older and wiser Christian brother or sister can show a younger one how to draw closer to Jesus and gain the assurance they seek directly from Him who saved them. Christians do not need to fight over what they feel is the most accurate doctrinal statement. They need to encourage those whose faith is weak and walk is distant to draw closer to their Lord and draw their certainty directly from Him who loves them.
 
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now faith

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The Bible refers to believers getting Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, 10:44-46). Believers usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Lk. 11:13b) baptism, for it isn't usually automatically given to them the moment they become believers; that's why Paul asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2). Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Cor. 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are 1 of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-11,28, 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (Jas. 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they've come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it's no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at, e.g., a Pentecostal-type or charismatic-type congregation.

The Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10), which operate in believers who've received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, 11:15-16, 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Cor. 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when believers will become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 Jn. 3:2) will they no longer need the Spiritual gifts of prophecy, tongues, & the word of knowledge (1 Cor. 12:8,10). During the future tribulation (which will precede the 2nd coming: Mt. 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the 2 witnesses simply because it will involve prophesying & miracles (Rev. 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming (like the trib) hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today (within Pentecostal-type & charismatic-type congregations, which can be found in different denominations). God's Word commands believers to operate in the Spiritual gifts when believers come together (1 Cor. 14:26-31). So congregations today must be careful never to quench the Spirit (1 Thes. 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thes. 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:39). Tongues are 1 of the Spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Cor. 14:4-5,12,26). As was pointed out earlier, not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, 10:45-46), for tongues are 1 of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Cor. 12:28, 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8) while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Cor. 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Cor. 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, & angelic languages (1 Cor. 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they're prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Cor. 14:2,28) they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Cor. 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), to bless God & thank God (1 Cor. 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, & then Spiritually interpreted (1 Cor. 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God they're singing the "spiritual songs" which Paul distinguishes from psalms & hymns (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16).

Paul sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray & sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Cor. 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Sam. 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul prayed & sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Cor. 14:18-19). But re: church meetings, Paul sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: they aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there's someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only 3 people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:27). Everyone who's received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he can edify others (1 Cor. 14:12-13, 12:10b).
Amen great post
 
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Radagast

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ALoveDivine

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I personally don't believe the "speaking in tongues" that is going on in the Charasmatic movement of today is what the bible refers to. In nearly every instance it seems that the tounges of the bible was a miraculous gift given to the apostles that enabled them to preach the gospel in multiple languages, even ones they'd never learned. I don't think the incoherent babbling of today is the same as the biblical tongues. That said, I'm not trying to debate that issue, it is one of those issues on which Christians can and do disagree.

The Holy Spirit's primary role in the life of a Christian is sanctification. We were saved because we were predestined from before the foundation of the world to become conformed to the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, gives us a hunger and a thirst for righteousness, illuminates biblical truth, gives praise to God, intercedes for us in prayer, and changes our character to be more like Christ.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
- Galatians 5:22-23

As far as assurance of salvation, I would simply point you to scripture. Read 1 John. This epistle was written specifically about this, to ensure true believers that they are indeed children of God. Also read through the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 5. Galatians and 1 Corinthians are also great resources if you are seeking assurance of your salvation.

This may also help in your self-examination.
How can I be sure of my salvation?
 
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now faith

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I personally don't believe the "speaking in tongues" that is going on in the Charasmatic movement of today is what the bible refers to. In nearly every instance it seems that the tounges of the bible was a miraculous gift given to the apostles that enabled them to preach the gospel in multiple languages, even ones they'd never learned. I don't think the incoherent babbling of today is the same as the biblical tongues. That said, I'm not trying to debate that issue, it is one of those issues on which Christians can and do disagree.

The Holy Spirit's primary role in the life of a Christian is sanctification. We were saved because we were predestined from before the foundation of the world to become conformed to the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, gives us a hunger and a thirst for righteousness, illuminates biblical truth, gives praise to God, intercedes for us in prayer, and changes our character to be more like Christ.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
- Galatians 5:22-23

As far as assurance of salvation, I would simply point you to scripture. Read 1 John. This epistle was written specifically about this, to ensure true believers that they are indeed children of God. Also read through the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 5. Galatians and 1 Corinthians are also great resources if you are seeking assurance of your salvation.

This may also help in your self-examination.
How can I be sure of my salvation?

Having stated your personal beliefs, does not change what the Bible says. You are cutting out many verses and adding conditions to others, you are teaching limits on God and that his promises are not for today . You are missing out on a relationship with God that accepts all of the Gospel. It is a false teaching handed down through generations,that steals your power and authority over Satan ,sickness ,and poverty. With out faith it is impossible to please God. Christ has given the authority and the spiritual gifts as a comfort to walk in his will. Read the post by Bible in the start of this thread and tell me what part is not true.
 
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now faith

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The Bible refers to believers getting Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, 10:44-46). Believers usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Lk. 11:13b) baptism, for it isn't usually automatically given to them the moment they become believers; that's why Paul asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2). Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Cor. 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are 1 of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-11,28, 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (Jas. 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they've come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it's no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at, e.g., a Pentecostal-type or charismatic-type congregation.

The Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10), which operate in believers who've received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, 11:15-16, 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. For 1 Cor. 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when believers will become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 Jn. 3:2) will they no longer need the Spiritual gifts of prophecy, tongues, & the word of knowledge (1 Cor. 12:8,10). During the future tribulation (which will precede the 2nd coming: Mt. 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the 2 witnesses simply because it will involve prophesying & miracles (Rev. 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming (like the trib) hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today (within Pentecostal-type & charismatic-type congregations, which can be found in different denominations). God's Word commands believers to operate in the Spiritual gifts when believers come together (1 Cor. 14:26-31). So congregations today must be careful never to quench the Spirit (1 Thes. 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thes. 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:39). Tongues are 1 of the Spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Cor. 14:4-5,12,26). As was pointed out earlier, not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, 10:45-46), for tongues are 1 of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Cor. 12:28, 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8) while other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Cor. 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Cor. 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, & angelic languages (1 Cor. 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they're prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Cor. 14:2,28) they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Cor. 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), to bless God & thank God (1 Cor. 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, & then Spiritually interpreted (1 Cor. 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God they're singing the "spiritual songs" which Paul distinguishes from psalms & hymns (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16).

Paul sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray & sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Cor. 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Sam. 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul prayed & sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Cor. 14:18-19). But re: church meetings, Paul sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: they aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there's someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only 3 people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Cor. 14:27). Everyone who's received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he can edify others (1 Cor. 14:12-13, 12:10b).

Good reading for all.
 
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ALoveDivine

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Again I don't want to debate the issue of spiritual gifts. It is certainly one of the most controversial issues in Christianity and many Christians disagree on it. I'm not a complete cessasionist, but I'm very skeptical of the Charismatic movement. Nevertheless, I consider those in that movement who love Jesus Christ to be my brothers and sisters, and I have no problem having a respectful disagreement on this issue.

I just wanted to point the poster to some resources dealing with assurance of salvation. There are plenty of places on CF to debate things like spiritual gifts. I am personally really tired of debating the same issues over and over, I don't like all the division in the body of Christ. In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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I've read in the Bible before of those great masses of people who would receive the Holy Ghost, begin speaking in tongues, and forever changed. I've also heard testimony from people of feeling God instantaneously change their hearts and the Holy Spirit enter their bodies, and since that day they've remained changed Born-Again Christians.

I was raised Methodist, though I no longer agree with that church, and I've dealt with my own sins and troubles to this day since I decided to become a Christian, although I chose to do it for the wrong reason. I love God and I have a never quenched thirst for Jesus and the Holy Ghost to reside within me and change my heart. Is this alone with Holy Spirit residing within me? Or will I have a moment in which I am finally taken completely and wholly by the Holy Ghost? I don't feel born-again and I've never had that moment where I was taken by the Holy Ghost.

I know that I should probably ask my pastor, but I'm in the middle of transitioning between my parents' Methodist church and a Pentecostal. Thanks for answering, and may God bless you.

The holy spirit doesn't take you, he abides with and in you. Its not about a special feeling but about a lifestyle. The fruits of the spirit is how you would know if you have the spirit. Are you displaying love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc? The bible says that by their fruits you shall know them. So it is the fruits of the spirit that gives the indication.
 
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asiyreh

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Alove it's funny you hold that particular view, because this stuff you're saying your sick of hearing was even happening at the very inception of Christianity. Paul struggled with the very same thing in his early churches.

Check out Romans 14 NIV - The Weak and the Strong - Accept the - Bible Gateway

So don't worry it simply means that you're a strong Christian

Personally myself I love a good theological debate. Paul would consider me a weak Christian, but it's not necessarily the same way we consider strong and weak. Also we know that:-

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Prov 27:17 so don't be afraid of it or grow tired of it. It a process dude and seemingly a necessary one.

Ultimately though Christ is the judge, there is non other, he can just look right into you're heart and know that you honestly sought him out during your life.

Lastly being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

The fact you're worried your work isn't completed is a good thing. We should never get to a stage were your like the pharisee

Luke 18:9-14
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”


In conclusion I'd say you're on the right path dude it's a process man. Keep conquering those giants in your life. Live your life in a state of prayer, meaning always listening to that still, quiet voice. Keep the commandments of God and the faith of Christ for this is the patients of the saints. Confessing your sins onto Christ daily and never change the negative view you hold of your own failing for this is true repentance.
 
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now faith

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ALoveDivine

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What tongues was Paul teaching about to Corinth and what did he mean when he said although I speak the language of angels
He was using hyperbole. Remember in that passage the point was about the supremacy of love, about how even if you can do all these amazing things, and lack love, you have nothing. Context is important.

" If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing."
- 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

The use of hyperbole is evident in the multiple uses of extremes to make a point.

Tongues was a Holy Spirit given spiritual gift in the Apostolic era, but scripture clearly describes it as the speaking of languages unknown to the speaker; not babbling.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?"
- Acts 2:4-8

If you read the whole of 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul talks in detail about the gift of tongues, it is clear that Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for using their gift of tongues in a way that doesn't build up the church. He asks what good it is if you speak a language no one understands and you don't interpret it; no one is built up except the speaker.

"So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church."
- 1 Corinthians 4:9-12

In this passage it is clear that Paul is referring to tongues as languages that are in the world, not some "angelic" language that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, except in one instance as hyperbole along other examples. He goes on later in the chapter to admonish the Corinthians to always have someone to interpret the languages.

Honestly, I am open to the Pentecostal idea of tongues, but I can find no evidence of it from scripture. All I see in the bible is the gift of tongues as an Apostolic gift that allowed the earliest church to speak multiple human languages other than their own, as the spirit gave them utterance. However if you can prove from scripture that the modern day speaking in tongues is the same as that of the Apostolic era, please post those verses. I can't find anything in scripture that validates the babbling characteristic of the Pentecostals.

Now like I said I am not a complete cessassionist. I think tongues ceased early on, but other gifts remain. Certainly divine healing can and does happen. I am even open to some prophecies, David Wilkerson's prophecy in particular is rather compelling. However, with any claimed gift of the spirit, we must test it by scripture. The bible is the word of God, and it is the measure of everything in the Christian life. So if you'd like to make a case for your view of tongues, please do so.
 
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He was using hyperbole. Remember in that passage the point was about the supremacy of love, about how even if you can do all these amazing things, and lack love, you have nothing. Context is important.

" If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing."
- 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

The use of hyperbole is evident in the multiple uses of extremes to make a point.

Tongues was a Holy Spirit given spiritual gift in the Apostolic era, but scripture clearly describes it as the speaking of languages unknown to the speaker; not babbling.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?"
- Acts 2:4-8

If you read the whole of 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul talks in detail about the gift of tongues, it is clear that Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for using their gift of tongues in a way that doesn't build up the church. He asks what good it is if you speak a language no one understands and you don't interpret it; no one is built up except the speaker.

"So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church."
- 1 Corinthians 4:9-12

In this passage it is clear that Paul is referring to tongues as languages that are in the world, not some "angelic" language that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, except in one instance as hyperbole along other examples. He goes on later in the chapter to admonish the Corinthians to always have someone to interpret the languages.

Honestly, I am open to the Pentecostal idea of tongues, but I can find no evidence of it from scripture. All I see in the bible is the gift of tongues as an Apostolic gift that allowed the earliest church to speak multiple human languages other than their own, as the spirit gave them utterance. However if you can prove from scripture that the modern day speaking in tongues is the same as that of the Apostolic era, please post those verses. I can't find anything in scripture that validates the babbling characteristic of the Pentecostals.

Now like I said I am not a complete cessassionist. I think tongues ceased early on, but other gifts remain. Certainly divine healing can and does happen. I am even open to some prophecies, David Wilkerson's prophecy in particular is rather compelling. However, with any claimed gift of the spirit, we must test it by scripture. The bible is the word of God, and it is the measure of everything in the Christian life. So if you'd like to make a case for your view of tongues, please do so.
. Granted there are out of control fits that are done in some churches, but this does not negate the gift of tongues. I disagree that Paul was speaking in metaphors about tongues, moving on in the passage on conduct in church about tongues , he mentioned they were for the believer not the unsaved. Gods gifts do not go away God does not change, Paul possessed all the gifts given by the Holy Spirit and he said in the latter instructions on tongues ,forbid not to speak in tongues. I think critics miss a blessing by denying the gifts, it always comes down to a example of people in a wild fit for a excuse denying the gifts. Its a throwing the baby out with the bath water. If we all looked at things this way we would not set foot in any church. So many affairs and adultery occurs that you could not find one without fault. But denying the gifts is a generational curse propagated by years of wrong interpretation of the word. Based on one misunderstood passage ( but when that which is perfect has come) has been taught as the completed Bible, with no logic behind the statement, that which is perfect is the second coming of Christ. It comes down to God giving the Holy Spirit and the gifts of why would he just stop and remove them, are we not in the same body of those at Pentecost or those after that spread the Gospel? But I don't kiss rattle snakes or do back flips, nor do I lust after the piano player. We have to ask one question ,what language does the Holy Spirit speak? And what language do the Angeles use ? Some how I doubt its English. So how would we interact and speak with the Holy Spirit in prayer by groaning by spiritual utterances?
 
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I claim that the gift of tongues has (likely) ceased for this reason; the bible describes the gift clearly as speaking in multiple human languages unknown to the speaker for the purpose of spreading the gospel. This context is clear throughout scripture, especially in the book of Acts where all the people were hearing in their own languages.

I know of no church or even individual believers who can speak multiple human languages that they have never learned, instantaneously and supernaturally, to spread the gospel. I could be wrong, maybe there are a select few out there that might have this gift, but I doubt it. I see the gift as being for the early Apostolic era, mostly due to the lack of evidence of it being in effect today.

Again if the modern day babbling practices of Charismatic churches is biblical tongues, I am open to this idea, but I need to see it validated from scripture. All I've seen is one passage which is clearly hyperbole; which by the way is not a metaphor, it is a distinct figure of speech that utilizes exaggeration to make a point.

Why would gifts have ceased? Who knows, but God gives them for his own purposes, and he may not have a purpose for that particular gift today. Consider the fact that this generation has the complete infallible word of God as a testimony to unbelievers. Perhaps the miraculous speaking in multiple tongues was an immensely important evangelistic gift in a world without a completed bible; same thing with prophecy. Ultimately, all of our ideas on these topics need to stand or fall by the word of God.

Experience itself is not a guide to truth, it must be tested by scripture. Having some knowledge of hypnotism and psychological trickery myself, I see most of this speaking in tongues phenomena as a manifestation of the power of suggestion and follow-the-leader hypnosis; self-delusion driven by an insatiable desire for paranormal experience. Which, by the way, potentially opens the door to all kinds of dark forces, so we must be very careful here.

I would think that if this kind of thing was truly a gift of God there would be something clear in scripture to validate it, but I've yet to see that.
 
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On tongues ,Acts chapter 2 verse 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Verse 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? This did not mean a vast amount of languages was being spoken,this was the Holy Spirit giving one language and they discerned it in their native tongue that's all it is not a gift to understand other earthly languages it never was. It is a Holy language that gives revelation knowlage. Otherwise Pentecost would have been a tower of babble reborn . So there was not multiple language being spoken , but one language poured out with each one understanding it. By standers would have understood some of what was being said instead they could not , they thought they were drunk , the by standers would have known the difference between native languages and something they thought was a drunken rant. If we go into a international crowd we can tell language spoken from babble. So I believe this has been a misconception since the Acts was written in English.
 
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I claim that the gift of tongues has (likely) ceased for this reason; the bible describes the gift clearly as speaking in multiple human languages unknown to the speaker for the purpose of spreading the gospel. This context is clear throughout scripture, especially in the book of Acts where all the people were hearing in their own languages.

I know of no church or even individual believers who can speak multiple human languages that they have never learned, instantaneously and supernaturally, to spread the gospel. I could be wrong, maybe there are a select few out there that might have this gift, but I doubt it. I see the gift as being for the early Apostolic era, mostly due to the lack of evidence of it being in effect today.

Again if the modern day babbling practices of Charismatic churches is biblical tongues, I am open to this idea, but I need to see it validated from scripture. All I've seen is one passage which is clearly hyperbole; which by the way is not a metaphor, it is a distinct figure of speech that utilizes exaggeration to make a point.

Why would gifts have ceased? Who knows, but God gives them for his own purposes, and he may not have a purpose for that particular gift today. Consider the fact that this generation has the complete infallible word of God as a testimony to unbelievers. Perhaps the miraculous speaking in multiple tongues was an immensely important evangelistic gift in a world without a completed bible; same thing with prophecy. Ultimately, all of our ideas on these topics need to stand or fall by the word of God.

Experience itself is not a guide to truth, it must be tested by scripture. Having some knowledge of hypnotism and psychological trickery myself, I see most of this speaking in tongues phenomena as a manifestation of the power of suggestion and follow-the-leader hypnosis; self-delusion driven by an insatiable desire for paranormal experience. Which, by the way, potentially opens the door to all kinds of dark forces, so we must be very careful here.

I would think that if this kind of thing was truly a gift of God there would be something clear in scripture to validate it, but I've yet to see that.
can you provide me with reference
to earthly language applied in scripture in places that tongues is mentioned in the Bible throughout? In chapter 1 of 1 St Corinthians Paul was teaching on the Spiritual Gifts, in chapter 2 he said though I speak with the tongues of Angels, and have not charity,I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. He goes on to say and though I have the gift of prophecy..... I think we both can agree he had the gift of prophecy . Why would he use a metaphor for the first statement? And why was he teaching on the gifts in chapter 1 all he was saying was there is better things to aspire for like charity he was not doing away with the other gifts. If healing exist today why would God do away with other gifts for what reason would he seek to stop the spiritual language from the Holy Spirit. I think the fear from the Azusa Street revival has a lot to do with this removal of scripture and it was based on the lack of acceptance of inter racial worship, and has been passed down for so long it is considered gospel.
 
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