am I the only protestant that does this?

Albion · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
Actually we do, although it is no longer common to call it prayer any more. See definitions #4 and #5
Pray [prey]
verb (used with object)
1.to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.to offer (a prayer).
3.to bring, put, etc., by praying:to pray a soul into heaven.
4.to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.to make petition or entreaty for; crave:She prayed his forgiveness.

It is these same definitions 4 and 5 that we use when praying to the saints, as we are petitioning for their prayers.

All right, but there's no Biblical support for praying to the dead. There is a germ of a case that can be made for praying FOR the dead (so long as it's not praying for or assuming that the prayer will change their eternal status), but not praying to spirits as intended intermediaries.

Meowzltov · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
Why do you assume the dead are more righteous than the living? How do you know the dead person you're praying to isn't in Purgatory?

This is why we usually limit our prayers to those the Church has declared Saints. This declaration states that they are in heaven. We trust that the Church in this matter is being led by the Holy Spirit.

Meowzltov · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
The bowls of incense in Revelation 5 are prayers to God, not prayers to the dead.

The bowls are the prayers of those who are with Christ in heaven, showing that they are indeed aware of what is going on in the world and pray for us.

Albion · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
That is an assumption of yours. Others of us assume the opposite.

It's not an assumption when it's based (as in this case) upon the word of God. Nowhere is there any suggestion in Scripture that this practice is either possible or right to do, so that's not a mere "assumption" like petitioning ghosts to act as messengers and negotiators with God would be.

Albion · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
The bowls are the prayers of those who are with Christ in heaven, showing that they are indeed aware of what is going on in the world and pray for us.

Neither being aware of the world or praying FOR us is what we were discussing. Both of those are irrelevant to this topic.

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I actually don't believe in purgatory in that way, it's not a doctrine I subscribe to. I think when we die we get judged immediately, if we have committed sins, we have to face up to them before we move on to heaven.

I'm not too worried about standing before God. I believe I do that every day.

Yet there is a last day and a last judgement in which all shall be judged - both the living and the dead. Perhaps there is an individual judgement that will be ratified in this last judgement ... maybe purgatory is more about the individual judgement than the last?

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

Albion said:
That's right, and the church's standards are at odds with what you described in the OP.

The confessions acknowledge the saints pray for us.

Other than that, I consider it a matter of Christian liberty. I've been to Catholic services that never invoke an intercession of a saint, in fact most do not. Most Catholic services I have been to resemble Episcopalian or Lutheran services in their structure almost identically.

I even visited a large Catholic gathering on the feast of the Immaculate Conception (because I'd never been to a Catholic service before) and I never heard an intercession to Mary once in the whole service

So I don't see the norms for worship as pertaining to personal spirituality at all.

If an ELCA congregation wanted to celebrate the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I don't see the issue... it's a Christian practice, after all. Nothing in the Confessions deny that the Virgin Mary didn't appear to Juan Diego hundreds of years ago. It also furthers the ELCA's mission to be inclusive.

I was pretty much with you until that last comment about 'low view of the sacraments.' I have no idea how you'd come by that idea. If you've actually experienced it, I'd call it quite exceptional.

It depends on what you mean by exceptional. Some priests treat the ceremonial as ceremony and symbolism, not necessarily churchmanship, in the modern Episcopal church.

Meowzltov · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I actually don't believe in purgatory in that way, it's not a doctrine I subscribe to. I think when we die we get judged immediately, if we have committed sins, we have to face up to them before we move on to heaven..

Okay I'll bite. When you say "face up to them," what exactly does that mean? If not some kind of punishment or purgation, then what?

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
Okay I'll bite. When you say "face up to them," what exactly does that mean? If not some kind of punishment or purgation, then what?

The "life review" people have in near-death experiences come to mind. People become aware of the consequences of their choices. IF you want to see that as punishment, OK. But its not the flames of purgatory punishing people.

Albion · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
The confessions acknowledge the saints pray for us.

Praying for US isn't what you were talking about. It was about us praying TO THEM.

Other than that, I consider it a matter of Christian liberty.

Well, that's between you and you and it doesn't require any further explanation.

If an ELCA congregation wanted to celebrate the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I don't see the issue... it's a Christian practice, after all.

It depends on what you mean by exceptional. Some priests treat the ceremonial as ceremony and symbolism, not necessarily churchmanship, in the modern Episcopal church.

They treat the ceremonial as ceremony....???? Let's not go deeper into this one.

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

Albion, the Bible doesn't give direct warrant for a lot of things think are proper and right to do. If nothing else, God hears our prayer (he is omniscient after all), and recognizes them as such. If one wanted to be technical, we could always ask God to ask the saint to pray for us.

But my main point is that I occasionally seek the intercessory prayers of someone who is not a canonized saint. I've asked for the prayers of Archbishop Oscar Romero, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Brennan Manning, and my own grandmother, at various times, for instance. And I almost always mention God in those prayers.

This is similar to how Eastern Orthodox handle the issue- Orthodox are allowed to seek the intercessions of anyone they feel lead a devout life on earth in accordance with their faith. The canonization process is a lot less clerically driven than the Roman one. There are even saints on Orthodox calendars that were not Eastern Orthodox in the strict sense (St. Ephrem the Syrian, I think he was Church of the East).

Albion · May 28, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Albion, the Bible doesn't give direct warrant for a lot of things think are proper and right to do. If nothing else, God hears our prayer (he is omniscient after all), and recognizes them as such.

Of course. but none of this suggests that whatever sounds reasonable to us is therefore right to do.

But my main point is that I occasionally seek the intercessory prayers of someone who is not a canonized saint. I've asked for the prayers of Archbishop Oscar Romero, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Brennan Manning, and my own grandmother, at various times, for instance. And I almost always mention God in those prayers.

Because there is nothing in Scripture that suggests doing so is God-pleasing, I don't do it. But there is a more obvious reason. When Jesus says, instructs, and shows us how to pray to the Father and tells us he wants to hear from us, I consider it ridiculous to the point of faithlessness to think I'm doing better to work through some intermediary without even knowing if that person is 1) in heaven or 2) can hear our prayers.

FireDragon76 · May 28, 2015

Albion said:
Of course. but none of this suggests that whatever sounds reasonable to us is therefore right to do.

I guess your theology leaves no room for human experience or the witness of the Holy Spirit.

I'm confident to emulate the examples of Christians that have engaged in this practice, because I can recognize the fruits of the Spirit in their life. So I d think it is inconsistent with virtue to seek the intercessory prayers of the saints.

Because there is nothing in Scripture that suggests doing so is God-pleasing, I don't do it.

I guess if you think the Bible is the last answer on everything in the Christian life, you'ld have a point. But hardly anyone is consistently Biblicist. Furthermore, all sorts of problems come from a consistently Biblicist hermeneutic, such as the justification of things like slavery or the subjugation of women. A faithful CHristian reading is not afraid to unpack Scriptures in its historical context and understand the meaning of the text on multiple levels.

If we acknowledge the saints in heaven pray for us, it only seems logical to conclude they know what is happening to us. Unless you suggest that they just pray a general prayer. I'm assuming you believe the latter?

The Revelation to John seems to suggest a unity between the Church militant and the Church in heaven for sure, and perhaps that the saints in heaven know what is happening on the Earth.

Liberasit · May 28, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I ask for prayers from people that have died that I believe evidenced some sign of holiness in their life. Sometimes I feel like I'm probably one of the few Protestants doing that, but I do go to Lutheran and Episcopalian churches, and I spent time as an Orthodox catechumen.

I am Protestant and don't do this.

Albion · May 28, 2015

I guess if you think the Bible is the last answer on everything in the Christian life

FireDragon76 said:
I guess your theology leaves no room for human experience or the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Why guess--or speculate--or sneer like that? Just ask.

WirSindBettler · May 28, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
In theory, there is nothing in the Augsburg Confession to make it illicit, but the general Lutheran argument in the past was "there is nothing in the Bible to say it would be effective or meaningful to do so" and that the practice was subject to abuse. All of which seem like weak arguments (the Eucharist itself can be subject to abuse, and Scriptures are silent on many things we take for granted).

Huh?

"The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints]. And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor]."
The Smalcald Articles

"But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor."
Augsburg Confession

"Even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid."
Defense of the Augsburg Confession

"Here the adversaries first bid us invoke the saints, although they have neither God's promise, nor a command, nor an example from Scripture. And yet they cause greater confidence in the mercy of the saints to be conceived than in that of Christ, although Christ bade us come to Him and not to the saints."
Defense of the Augsburg Confession

"But where has this arrangement, to which he refers when he says that we ought to resort to the aid of the saints, been instituted by God? Let him produce an example or command from the Scriptures. Perhaps they derive this arrangement from the courts of kings, where friends must be employed as intercessors. But if a king has appointed a certain intercessor, he will not desire that cases be brought to him through others. Thus, since Christ has been appointed Intercessor and High Priest, why do we seek others? [What can the adversaries say in reply to this?]"
Defense of the Augsburg Confession

"Since, therefore, the adversaries teach us to place confidence in the invocation of saints, although they have neither the Word of God nor the example of Scripture [of the Old or of the New Testament]; since they apply the merits of the saints on behalf of others, not otherwise than they apply the merits of Christ, and transfer the honor belonging only to Christ to the saints, we can receive neither their opinions concerning the worship of the saints, nor the practise of invocation. For we know that confidence is to be placed in the intercession of Christ, because this alone has God's promise. We know that the merits of Christ alone are a propitiation for us. On account of the merits of Christ we are accounted righteous when we believe in Him, as the text says, Rom. 9:33 (cf. 1 Pet. 2:6 and Is. 28:16): Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be confounded. Neither are we to trust that we are accounted righteous by the merits of the blessed Virgin or of the other saints."
Defense of the Augsburg Confession

FireDragon76 · May 28, 2015

WSB, I am not an LCMS Lutheran, I don't speak for them, nor am I a student of that interpretation of Lutheranism.

I see a reaction to the abuse of the practice, that perhaps it could obscure the Gospel. And I would agree. But I also earlier presented theological reasons why the veneration and intercession of saints does not contradict the Gospel and does not diminish Christ's glory, reasons that the Reformers did not consider. They focused on justification, being the leading controversy of the day, to a degree that they may have overlooked equally Christian themes, such as the role of God's grace in the Incarnation, or our glorification.

...and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do

Eastern Orthodox venerate and seek the assistance of the saints for their prayers, and they don't teach that saints have domains over various spheres of creation or grant magical assistance apart from faith. So I see that as a false dichotomy.

I would tend to say the merits of the saints in heaven are not different from the merits of Christ himself. They get to heaven, after all, due to his merit's, not their own. This goes back to my point about the incarnation. Christ must become incarnate in each of us. Perhaps we do this only imperfectly in this life, but it's foolish to think this is not the purpose for which we were saved, to have perfect union with Christ in the next world.

Also, I believe this is not strictly an issue of merit. Many Christians do not pray for the intercession of a saint for the reason of obtaining merit before God independent of faith, of earning justification.

WirSindBettler · May 28, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
WSB, I am not an LCMS Lutheran

I understand that.

FireDragon76 said:
I don't speak for them, nor am I a student of that interpretation of Lutheranism.

The ELCA still claims "Lutheran confessional writings in the Book of Concord as the basis for [their] teaching."

It's not an "interpretation of Lutheranism" but rather an article of Lutheran faith. If I, as an LCMS Lutheran can back up proof saying that even the ELCA supports the position I am affirming, even though my Synod does not officially theologically consider the ELCA to be Lutheran, it should prove that this point is rather basic to our mutual understanding of Christianity. All "interpretations" of Lutheranism, except for stray pastors and congregations, officially agree with, even on a basic quatenus level, the Book of Concord.

FireDragon76 said:
I see a reaction to the abuse of the practice, that perhaps it could obscure the Gospel.

Again, from the Lutheran confessions, which the ELCA holds a quatenus subscription to and once again claims to be "the basis for [their] teaching":

"The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints]. And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor]."
The Smalcald Articles

FireDragon76 said:
But I also earlier presented theological reasons why the veneration and intercession of saints does not contradict the Gospel and does not diminish Christ's glory, reasons that the Reformers did not consider.

Of course! Luther couldn't have considered these points while locked up in the Wartburg for over a year while translating scripture! I mean, it's not as if the reformers devoted their entire lives to scriptural and theological studies.

FireDragon76 · May 28, 2015

I don't consider Luther infallible, and I'm guessing most Lutherans don't either. So yes, I believe he could have failed to consider it.

He and Calvin were mostly interested in upholding the doctrine of grace in justification, which I believe was praiseworthy considering the dominance of the via moderna during his day, which taught that God gives grace to those who do "what is in them" (do your best and God does the rest, which is not consistent with Augustine). But Calvin especially minimized incarnation in his theology, which is one reason he was so iconoclastic. And yet without the doctrine of the incarnation, or the hope of our glorification, the Christian Gospel becomes distorted. It becomes a religion of justification by doctrinal assent, and not the living faith of the apostles and martyrs.

I'm sure the ELCA as a whole does not teach this doctrine. But I'm guessing many pastors would affirm my Christian liberty in the matter, and some would probably agree.

WirSindBettler · May 28, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I'm sure the ELCA as a whole does not teach this doctrine. But I'm guessing many pastors would affirm my Christian liberty in the matter, and some would probably agree.

This doesn't fall under "Christian liberty," but ok, I suppose . . .

am I the only protestant that does this?

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