Am I The Only One

Saint Steven · Sep 2, 2020

RushMAN said:
I am not afraid. I feel sorry for you that you think that your way is right instead of God's way

I feel sorry (not really) that you have such a low opinion of God. (angry volcano god)

mlepfitjw · Sep 2, 2020

@Saint Steven Thank you, and I love you brother. You know my life would have never changed if the Lord Jesus Christ never really finally revealed himself to me at the age of 25 or 26. Which was only 3 to 4 years ago.

He has changed me from a person who hated others, even his own family, easily angered and triggered by life itself, thrown around with many directions with drug abuse, and seeing the faces of so many that had came and went through life.

The younger me knew but never cared to know God, or Jesus Christ, only feared the expectation of burning in hell forever because that was men had taught. It's great now to know that God is fire, that love burns us down in (our flesh), though not perfectly. The spirit builds us up, in the ability have faith and trust in a merciful, just, and loving God who did send Jesus Christ to pay for my sin, your sin, and everyone elses before we were even born.

That we can have relationship with God, and the Lord Jesus freely, openly, and have them work with-in our lives, by the spirit that is given, that we may have self-control, and try to keep walking in the spirit and loving others around us. Which sometimes it may feel like we do not do much at all, we might not even know how to fit in sometimes, but God changes people, from a whirlwind of a hurricane called HATE. To DESPISE humans.

To instead praying for them, no matter who they are, even if they are in your life, or not in your life, an unbeliever, or a stranger. Love is the goal, and for me love does no wrong to his neighbor, and Im far from ever being perfect.

For that glory to God, and the Lord Jesus Christ forever.

Saint Steven · Sep 2, 2020

Agallagher said:
@Saint Steven Thank you, and I love you brother. You know my life would have never changed if the Lord Jesus Christ never really finally revealed himself to me at the age of 25 or 26. Which was only 3 to 4 years ago.

He has changed me from a person who hated others, even his own family, easily angered and triggered by life itself, thrown around with many directions with drug abuse, and seeing the faces of so many that had came and went through life.

The younger me knew but never cared to know God, or Jesus Christ, only feared the expectation of burning in hell forever because that was men had taught. It's great now to know that God is fire, that love burns us down in (our flesh), though not perfectly. The spirit builds us up, in the ability have faith and trust in a merciful, just, and loving God who did send Jesus Christ to pay for my sin, your sin, and everyone elses before we were even born.

That we can have relationship with God, and the Lord Jesus freely, openly, and have them work with-in our lives, by the spirit that is given, that we may have self-control, and try to keep walking in the spirit and loving others around us. Which sometimes it may feel like we do not do much at all, we might not even know how to fit in sometimes, but God changes people, from a whirlwind of a hurricane called HATE. To DESPISE humans.

To instead praying for them, no matter who they are, even if they are in your life, or not in your life, an unbeliever, or a stranger. Love is the goal, and for me love does no wrong to his neighbor, and Im far from ever being perfect.

For that glory to God, and the Lord Jesus Christ forever.

Thanks.
You are a real asset to the forum. I'm glad to have you here. I have enjoyed your topics and posts. We don't agree on everything, but that's fine by me.

I was raised in a Christian home. God invited me into a relationship with him at eight years old. I walked away when I was a teen, but returned as a young adult. I married a Christian woman and we have two sons. We've been married for over 40 years. I've been active in church ministries most of my adult life.

Saint Steven · Sep 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
God invited me into a relationship with him at eight years old.

This is a story worth sharing.

At eight years of age I was attending a Summer Bible camp in Wisconsin. In a morning chapel service the man speaking did as they always did, he gave an invitation to receive Christ. He asked that all heads be bowed and all eyes closed. But I found myself peeking to see if any of these "lost sinners" would raise a hand. At that moment God spoke to me. Though it was a supernatural event, it seemed as natural to me as anything. I knew who it was and wasn't frightened, or disturbed by it.

What I heard was mind-blowing. It came like a tap on my shoulder. The message clear and direct. "If you think it is so important, why haven't you done it?" I was speechless. I answered with my feet. I knew the drill. I rose to my feet and pushed my way to the aisle to go forward before we were even asked to do so.

When I was a young adult I made a connection about this event that had not been apparent to me at the time. The man who led me to Christ was the son of the man that led my father to the Lord. A Christian Alliance missionary that went from farm to farm inviting people to Sunday School and sharing the gospel in the area where my father grew up. Basically in the middle of nowhere. Such a wonderful mystery, the workings of our great God. @Agallagher

mlepfitjw · Sep 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
This is a story worth sharing.

At eight years of age I was attending a Summer Bible camp in Wisconsin. In a morning chapel service the man speaking did as they always did, he gave an invitation to receive Christ. He asked that all heads be bowed and all eyes closed. But I found myself peeking to see if any of these "lost sinners" would raise a hand. At that moment God spoke to me. Though it was a supernatural event, it seemed as natural to me as anything. I knew who it was and wasn't frightened, or disturbed by it.

What I heard was mind-blowing. It came like a tap on my shoulder. The message clear and direct. "If you think it is so important, why haven't you done it?" I was speechless. I answered with my feet. I knew the drill. I rose to my feet and pushed my way to the aisle to go forward before we were even asked to do so.

When I was a young adult I made a connection about this event that had not been apparent to me at the time. The man who led me to Christ was the son of the man that led my father to the Lord. A Christian Alliance missionary that went from farm to farm inviting people to Sunday School and sharing the gospel in the area where my father grew up. Basically in the middle of nowhere. Such a wonderful mystery, the workings of our great God. @Agallagher

Wow, is that not something. God used the son of a former helper that helped your father to the Lord. God is so good, and always is working in and through each experience that leads us to him. It is also a part to, that is from our self in the response of what we should do. We hear the news, either taught out of envy or rivalry and we hear bits and pieces, then we have some that teach out of love either way the message of Christ is getting out into the airwaves, and to people who are seeking (Philippians 1:15-18). There was times I remember being younger and doing those things, but my mother worked 2 jobs, and I grew up with no father and didn't learn nothing other than what I caught through the pastors.

This evening coming in from work, on the radio station here in Alabama 88.5 or close to that number, there is a radio station called Moody. A speaker who was someone who did a live call in show about Christianity talked about people in Iran, and how sometimes Muslim people would call in, cussing and bickering and angry saying that those were the best calls, and how the man handled the calls after people would be saying the responses he gave were loving and they wanna know more about Jesus Christ.

What was interesting was that the man on todays show mentioned how the number 1 thing that is asked from people in Iran, is teach us the bible, cause the government over there is strick though the people there said to the man they dont care. They wanna know more about God and are really seeking. They are not afraid of the government. The government is afraid of them. It was mentioned that people in Iran get out sattlites at night even though it is illegal and it is the only way to get connected with the outside world. Also He mentioned how the people are not afraid to die for Christ, they wanna live for him.

So that is good news from another part of the world we do not see on a daily basis. God is good, and his presence is every where.

FredVB · Nov 26, 2020

Universalism is not at all peculiar, it really is a widespread belief, even if it is not included among what is called orthodox in matters of belief.

When orthodoxy is threatened, the orthodox cry "heresy".

Orthodoxy is indeed not the same as truth and true reality, which is what is really desirable to seek to know, orthodoxy of beliefs changes all the time over the ages, and there are then errors in orthodoxy at any time. So for what would be determined for faith, there is still what the Bible is actually saying, to be considered. Are there verses that may be considered to be supporting universalism? Sure there are, taken in themselves, where there is mention of what is for the whole world. But the understanding of those passages should not eliminate what is said in other passages in the Bible, or it is not what the Bible is actually saying. What is for the whole world is the salvation made available to all, without it meaning that all receive salvation in Christ, then.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. How the gate is narrow and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are who find it."

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Revelation 20:10-15
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Saint Steven · Nov 26, 2020

FredVB said:
Universalism is not at all peculiar, it really is a widespread belief, even if it is not included among what is called orthodox in matters of belief.

Orthodoxy is indeed not the same as truth and true reality, which is what is really desirable to seek to know, orthodoxy of beliefs changes all the time over the ages, and there are then errors in orthodoxy at any time. So for what would be determined for faith, there is still what the Bible is actually saying, to be considered. Are there verses that may be considered to be supporting universalism? Sure there are, taken in themselves, where there is mention of what is for the whole world. But the understanding of those passages should not eliminate what is said in other passages in the Bible, or it is not what the Bible is actually saying. What is for the whole world is the salvation made available to all, without it meaning that all receive salvation in Christ, then.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. How the gate is narrow and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are who find it."

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Revelation 20:10-15
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

There are major problems with Damnationism as well. But most Damnationists just shrug them off.

The verses you quoted tell us that God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. That he has made salvation difficult, if not impossible, to find. Is this God's plan for his creation? (seems like slander to me)

And who are those identified in Matthew chapter twenty-five that will receive "eternal" life? And who will receive eternal punishment according to that chapter? See vs 43-44 below.

Matthew 25:40-46
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

FredVB · Mar 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
There are major problems with Damnationism as well. But most Damnationists just shrug them off.

The verses you quoted tell us that God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. That he has made salvation difficult, if not impossible, to find. Is this God's plan for his creation? (seems like slander to me)

And who are those identified in Matthew chapter twenty-five that will receive "eternal" life? And who will receive eternal punishment according to that chapter? See vs 43-44 below.

Matthew 25:40-46
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You make allegation that I say God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape, and that he has made salvation difficult, if not impossible, to find. Where can you show I say that? I could say it seems like slander to me.

All people are subject to damnation already, our sins are not left without consequence and those who commit sin are subject to bearing the consequence forever, and perishing for them. Perishing is not equivalent to annihilation, missing heaven and forever suffering the consequence of our living in our sins will be perishing. And we all face that. But it is not God's will that any would perish. God sent Christ into our world, and any person at all can come to repentance and then being in Christ would have their sins being on Christ who came to bear them for us. Who do you think I say does not have that opportunity? It is you making allegation that I say something for that, and refer to me as a damnationist, and say that is a problem from using Bible passages for what I show, so that your problem is with the Bible. What individual is there according to what I say that God cannot reach for salvation whether the gospel is spreading there or not? But still it is the responsibility of Christian believers to have the gospel of Jesus Christ spread. The opportunity is to be increased, according to God's will.

Saint Steven · Mar 8, 2021

FredVB said:
You make allegation that I say God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape, and that he has made salvation difficult, if not impossible, to find. Where can you show I say that? I could say it seems like slander to me.

Read my quote again. (see 2nd paragraph below) It reads...
"The verses you quoted tell us that God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape."
Nothing about you "saying" these things.

Saint Steven said:
There are major problems with Damnationism as well. But most Damnationists just shrug them off.

The verses you quoted tell us that God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. That he has made salvation difficult, if not impossible, to find. Is this God's plan for his creation? (seems like slander to me)

And who are those identified in Matthew chapter twenty-five that will receive "eternal" life? And who will receive eternal punishment according to that chapter? See vs 43-44 below.

Matthew 25:40-46
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Saint Steven · Mar 8, 2021

FredVB said:
All people are subject to damnation already, our sins are not left without consequence and those who commit sin are subject to bearing the consequence forever, and perishing for them. Perishing is not equivalent to annihilation, missing heaven and forever suffering the consequence of our living in our sins will be perishing. And we all face that. But it is not God's will that any would perish. God sent Christ into our world, and any person at all can come to repentance and then being in Christ would have their sins being on Christ who came to bear them for us. Who do you think I say does not have that opportunity? It is you making allegation that I say something for that, and refer to me as a damnationist, and say that is a problem from using Bible passages for what I show, so that your problem is with the Bible. What individual is there according to what I say that God cannot reach for salvation whether the gospel is spreading there or not? But still it is the responsibility of Christian believers to have the gospel of Jesus Christ spread. The opportunity is to be increased, according to God's will.

These are the scriptures you quote in post #327.
- If few find that narrow gate, what becomes of the majority? ("... the way is restricted that leads to life!" - Matt.7:14 below)
- Who are those that go away to eternal punishment according to Matthew chapter twenty-five?

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. How the gate is narrow and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are who find it."

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

FredVB · Mar 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Read my quote again. (see 2nd paragraph below) It reads...
"The verses you quoted tell us that God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape."
Nothing about you "saying" these things.

Saint Steven said:
There are major problems with Damnationism as well. But most Damnationists just shrug them off.

The verses you quoted tell us that God predestined the vast majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. That he has made salvation difficult, if not impossible, to find. Is this God's plan for his creation? (seems like slander to me)

And who are those identified in Matthew chapter twenty-five that will receive "eternal" life? And who will receive eternal punishment according to that chapter? See vs 43-44 below.

Matthew 25:40-46
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So it is, the passages show it, there is everlasting torment to those who perish, with no hope of escape out from there. That is not slander, as it is saying that. Christ does not know them, they do not know Christ. Those who come to Christ, to Jesus himself, are known to him, through the relationship, and they show good works in their involvement with others, with love. It is not difficult, you seem to just interpret it as difficulty. People repent from sin in their life and do willingly come to God when God is showing them to do so, God can have that happen anywhere, as God is not willing that they perish. But many more people still reject God as their response.

Saint Steven said:
These are the scriptures you quote in post #327.

Is that the numbered post you mean? It is not the post from me.

- If few find that narrow gate, what becomes of the majority? ("... the way is restricted that leads to life!" - Matt.7:14 below)
- Who are those that go away to eternal punishment according to Matthew chapter twenty-five?

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. How the gate is narrow and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are who find it."

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The majority do reject the way of God, they do not come to repentance and are left to perish though God was not willing for that. It is not a broader way than with Jesus Christ, no one rejecting Christ comes to that. The ones who do come to God as Christ made possible he cleanses from all unrighteousness.

Saint Steven · Mar 11, 2021

FredVB said:
So it is, the passages show it, there is everlasting torment to those who perish, with no hope of escape out from there. That is not slander, as it is saying that. Christ does not know them, they do not know Christ. Those who come to Christ, to Jesus himself, are known to him, through the relationship, and they show good works in their involvement with others, with love. It is not difficult, you seem to just interpret it as difficulty. People repent from sin in their life and do willingly come to God when God is showing them to do so, God can have that happen anywhere, as God is not willing that they perish. But many more people still reject God as their response.

Yes, that is the standard doctrine we have been raised on. But what do you do when you encounter a verse like the one below? Call it a difficulty? (as you accuse me of doing with your scriptures) Here, "those who believe" are a subset of the "all people" who are being saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

FredVB · Mar 13, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Yes, that is the standard doctrine we have been raised on. But what do you do when you encounter a verse like the one below? Call it a difficulty? (as you accuse me of doing with your scriptures) Here, "those who believe" are a subset of the "all people" who are being saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

I do not call a verse, such as that, a difficulty. Slaughter of babies spoken of in the Bible is a difficulty but things like this are not a difficulty. I was not accusing you of calling a verse a difficulty when I responded that it seems to me to be that when you said it seems to be be slander, when it really wasn't. Let's drop personal remarks, the issue is whether all people get saved. The narrow way is a reference to that not being the case, so a verse that is saying God is the savior of all people does not then mean God saves all individuals, the narrow way mentioned says that would not be the case. It is narrow because Jesus Christ provides the only way. Those rejecting Jesus Christ are not entering through the narrow way. So the salvation available to all people shows that salvation would not be unavailable to any group of people, but that there are people rejecting God's way. Paul who wrote to Timothy including the passage shown also wrote the epistle to the Romans including Romans 1:20-26, Paul does not show he is inclusive in salvation that he means being applied to all individuals.

Saint Steven · Mar 13, 2021

FredVB said:
Paul who wrote to Timothy including the passage shown also wrote the epistle to the Romans including Romans 1:20-26, Paul does not show he is inclusive in salvation that he means being applied to all individuals.

Why do you assume that is speaking about salvation?

Saint Steven · Mar 13, 2021

FredVB said:
... the issue is whether all people get saved. The narrow way is a reference to that not being the case...

All three doctrines of the final judgment have biblical support. Yet are in conflict.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

You can't really brush aside the supporting scripture for one view in favor of another. All scripture is valid. What you seem to be claiming is that 1Tim.4:10 is not valid due to your understanding of the "narrow way".

Saint Steven said:
Yes, that is the standard doctrine we have been raised on. But what do you do when you encounter a verse like the one below? Call it a difficulty? (as you accuse me of doing with your scriptures) Here, "those who believe" are a subset of the "all people" who are being saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Saint Steven · Mar 13, 2021

@FredVB Here's a great unbiased presentation of the three views of the final judgment. In case you are not familiar with the biblical support for each view.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Der Alte · Mar 13, 2021

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
Yes, that is the standard doctrine we have been raised on. But what do you do when you encounter a verse like the one below? Call it a difficulty? (as you accuse me of doing with your scriptures) Here, "those who believe" are a subset of the "all people" who are being saved.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

I wonder why this verse does not stop at "the savior of all people?" Why does it continue "and especially of those who believe?" Doesn't "all people" inherently include "those who believe?" Didn't Paul know that "all people" included "those who believe?"
Would Paul say in this one verse that the living God is the savior of all people and mean every single person who ever lived or will live, no matter what, and then say 23 categories of people will not inherit the kingdom of God?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

FredVB · Mar 18, 2021

FredVB said:
I do not call a verse, such as that, a difficulty. Slaughter of babies spoken of in the Bible is a difficulty but things like this are not a difficulty. The narrow way is a reference to that not being the case, so a verse that is saying God is the savior of all people does not then mean God saves all individuals, the narrow way mentioned says that would not be the case. It is narrow because Jesus Christ provides the only way. Those rejecting Jesus Christ are not entering through the narrow way. So the salvation available to all people shows that salvation would not be unavailable to any group of people, but that there are people rejecting God's way. Paul who wrote to Timothy including the passage shown also wrote the epistle to the Romans including Romans 1:20-26, Paul does not show he is inclusive in salvation that he means being applied to all individuals.

Saint Steven said:
Why do you assume that is speaking about salvation?

It is God giving up on people who are persistent in their ungodliness, it certainly is relevant to possibility of salvation.

All three doctrines of the final judgment have biblical support. Yet are in conflict.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

You can't really brush aside the supporting scripture for one view in favor of another. All scripture is valid. What you seem to be claiming is that 1Tim.4:10 is not valid due to your understanding of the "narrow way".

That sounded like nonsense. You started with saying verses of the Bible are in conflict, then you tell me, as if this is not my faith, that all scripture is valid. It is nonsense to believe both those things. If verses seem to be in conflict, then there is the wrong understanding of those, unless all scripture is not valid. And any verses on a subject should be consistent and not contradictory to other passages on it. Since the way is narrow and there are those who perish, salvation for all people has to be understood consistently with that. It is not about "I have more verses for my position than you have for yours". That is no way to come to any valid understanding from discussion of what we are told in the Bible.

Here's a great unbiased presentation of the three views of the final judgment. In case you are not familiar with the biblical support for each view.

I would discuss what you say for yourself rather than discuss what someone else who I don't follow and don't communicate with says. I don't read the Bible less than others generally.

Der Alte said:
I wonder why this verse does not stop at "the savior of all people?" Why does it continue "and especially of those who believe?" Doesn't "all people" inherently include "those who believe?" Didn't Paul know that "all people" included "those who believe?"
Would Paul say in this one verse that the living God is the savior of all people and mean every single person who ever lived or will live, no matter what, and then say 23 categories of people will not inherit the kingdom of God?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesian 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

These passages are great for response to the topic, thanks for posting, I appreciate this and will keep these Bible passages for this topic for use in the future.

Saint Steven · Mar 18, 2021

FredVB said:
That sounded like nonsense. You started with saying verses of the Bible are in conflict, then you tell me, as if this is not my faith, that all scripture is valid. It is nonsense to believe both those things. If verses seem to be in conflict, then there is the wrong understanding of those, unless all scripture is not valid. And any verses on a subject should be consistent and not contradictory to other passages on it. Since the way is narrow and there are those who perish, salvation for all people has to be understood consistently with that. It is not about "I have more verses for my position than you have for yours". That is no way to come to any valid understanding from discussion of what we are told in the Bible.

Clearly the three doctrinal views of the final judgement are in conflict.
- Damnationism says the damned will be in eternal conscious torment.
- Annihilationism says the damned will be incinerated and cease to exist.
- Universal Restorationism says that God will restore all things to life, including "the damned".

Previous post:
All three doctrines of the final judgment have biblical support. Yet are in conflict.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

You can't really brush aside the supporting scripture for one view in favor of another. All scripture is valid. What you seem to be claiming is that 1Tim.4:10 is not valid due to your understanding of the "narrow way".

Shrewd Manager · Mar 30, 2021

April_Rose said:
am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged?

Jesus identifies two types of judgment, the wrong kind ie to condemn, and the righteous kind ie to restore. What do you think the Final Judgment will be, restorative unto salvation or condemning unto damnation? I think you're saying you believe the former. Good for you. Salvation is the omega plan, Jesus wins hands down.

God's justice is about setting right, not about getting even. The process might be very painful for some, to be purified of the beloved sin attachments of a lifetime.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:32)

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