Am I on satan's side by default?

[undoing]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.
Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?
Why/why not?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jesus says who is not for Him is against Him. He says those that do what He teaches love Him and those who dont, dont love Him. His NT teaching also says that the world is under the influence of Satan, that Jesus brings life and that Satan comes to destroy. But of course this is a revelation throughout the Bible, trust I God and the things of God rather than rebellion.
Believers might also be guided by the Holy Spirit or lead astray by Satan, this is why we seek to worship in Spirit and truth.
For believers the atheist doesnt belong with Satan, all people belong with God. It shouldnt be an issue as believers know that and atheists wont be bothered as they dont believe in God or Satan.

So what matters is God and His truth, not who might and might not be.

 

[AlAyeti]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.

You mean Jesus with a capital J? Christians with a capital C?

No, all non Christians are not working for Satan. Are they following the cultutre of "powers and principalities?" Probably more than they are following the faith delivered only once to the saints.

Both Jesus and Paul refer to non-followers that do what is right by nature and by actions. Obviously if Satan controlled every non-believer then that couldn't be so. Satan is not omnipotent or omnipresent. But we can see how pervasively "evil" a licentious society is. Just starting the ball rolling is all humans need to go astray. Satan throws a ball towards a cliff and watches how many victims add up at the bottom of it.

Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?

Let me ask you, which atheist, Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, would you think qualifies????

Why/why not?

There is a BIG difference between a non-believer and an anti-Christian. Just as there is an anti-Christ and THE Anti-Christ.

(Hopefully you are an atheist that has gotten past the "Who created God" thing.)

 

[Baptist Christian 1611]

Regardless of how you would like to label someone, (Christian,Catholic, Pentecostal, Mormon, atheist, Jehovah's Witness, Satanist), there are only 2 Fathers in this world, God or the devil. By default we are born in this world and Satan is our father, John 8:44, or God is our father Matthew 6:9, if we have received salvation. Having settled that, it is true that not all unbelievers are pushing the devil's agenda. They may be great people but just have not received Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour.

 

[Jpark]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.
Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?
Why/why not?

I agree with what Norvegicus said, it's really a matter of the way it's worded.

I'd say that the unbelievers are disposed to unbelief, which is the result of Satan's influence.

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

If I'm not mistaken, many unbelievers acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. Also, their unbelief is not concerning the Son of God, but the reality of God. I see the word, "there is no God" more frequently than "Jesus is not the Son of God".

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

1 John 4:3, in context, is essentially referring to Christian apostates.

 

[undoing]

Jesus says who is not for Him is against Him. He says those that do what He teaches love Him and those who dont, dont love Him.

I'd like to question this statement in the strictest sense here, of "those who don't love him", being an atheist means that I don't believe in him, so I have no feelings about "him", you see I can't not love something I don't believe in. Do you think that statement means literally 'those who do not love him' in the sense that 'he' exists to them? Or does it apply universally, extending to those who don't even *know* him?

His NT teaching also says that the world is under the influence of Satan, that Jesus brings life and that Satan comes to destroy. But of course this is a revelation throughout the Bible, trust I God and the things of God rather than rebellion.

I have to agree that rebellion has an ugly side and I'm following what you're saying about immoral acts of rebellion/rebellion against god. I'm not rebelling against "God", I just don't believe in him. There are good forms of rebellion aswell, and worth being a part of of. Such as peaceful protests, etc.

Believers might also be guided by the Holy Spirit or lead astray by Satan, this is why we seek to worship in Spirit and truth.
For believers the atheist doesnt belong with Satan, all people belong with God. It shouldnt be an issue as believers know that and atheists wont be bothered as they dont believe in God or Satan.

So what matters is God and His truth, not who might and might not be.

Might and might not be what? I don't know what this means, you mean who might/mightn't be "with" Satan?

You mean Jesus with a capital J? Christians with a capital C?

Yes AlAyeti I should have used capitals for proper nouns but correct grammar, as I'd first typed these nouns, meant using hyphens to convey ambiguity and inference of non existence. Looking for an alternative which would be more polite, I'd decided on lower case for a common noun since they are represented differently and I'd pass them off as common nouns. I'll use them as proper nouns herein, however, I'll most likely revert to the common noun because I like correctness, I suppose.

No, all non Christians are not working for Satan. Are they following the cultutre of "powers and principalities?" Probably more than they are following the faith delivered only once to the saints.

Are you saying that most/many non Christians are working for Satan?

Both Jesus and Paul refer to non-followers that do what is right by nature and by actions. Obviously if Satan controlled every non-believer then that couldn't be so. Satan is not omnipotent or omnipresent. But we can see how pervasively "evil" a licentious society is. Just starting the ball rolling is all humans need to go astray. Satan throws a ball towards a cliff and watches how many victims add up at the bottom of it.

My recollection of Satan's power being taught me by a Christian was that Satan has no power at all but his persuation, his talking, through temptation, through deceit. That any acts brought about by Satan were admitted by God.

Let me ask you, which atheist, Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens, would you think qualifies????

I don't know Christopher Hitchens. I don't understand what you mean by qualifies either. Do you mean to ask which 'brand' of atheism is "better"?

There is a BIG difference between a non-believer and an anti-Christian. Just as there is an anti-Christ and THE Anti-Christ.

(Hopefully you are an atheist that has gotten past the "Who created God" thing.)

Thanks AlAyeti, Where do the Christ - free fit in?
I remember a time I learned about different religions from a Christian's perspective. It went along the lines of, every country has a God who may be the true God for them, but here, we live with a Christian God. We can't explain why God would have so many books or denominations, but we know that for this country, Jesus is the one true God.

Please reply to this

Regardless of how you would like to label someone, (Christian,Catholic, Pentecostal, Mormon, atheist, Jehovah's Witness, Satanist), there are only 2 Fathers in this world, God or the devil. By default we are born in this world and Satan is our father, John 8:44, or God is our father Matthew 6:9, if we have received salvation. Having settled that, it is true that not all unbelievers are pushing the devil's agenda. They may be great people but just have not received Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour.

Thankyou Baptist!! I love this perspective. What I get from this is that people are all swayed by the Earth (Satan's domain), some are good hearted without following the Bible, other's follow the bible but all are equal.

I agree with what Norvegicus said, it's really a matter of the way it's worded.

I'd say that the unbelievers are disposed to unbelief, which is the result of Satan's influence.

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

If I'm not mistaken, many unbelievers acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. Also, their unbelief is not concerning the Son of God, but the reality of God. I see the word, "there is no God" more frequently than "Jesus is not the Son of God".

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

1 John 4:3, in context, is essentially referring to Christian apostates.

Thankyou for your response. I'm not easily persuaded based on my understanding of truth. I don't claim to have any better understanding than you, I just have a different method of decerning what's important.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To undoing,
Thanks for your questions.

I'd like to question this statement in the strictest sense here, of "those who don't love him", being an atheist means that I don't believe in him, so I have no feelings about "him", you see I can't not love something I don't believe in. Do you think that statement means literally 'those who do not love him' in the sense that 'he' exists to them? Or does it apply universally, extending to those who don't even *know* him?

I partly agree with you, Jesus says that those who have faith in Him do what He teaches, if one doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ then they obviously don’t have faith in Him.
So I think as far as a believer is concerned atheists who have heard what He teaches and reject it don’t believe, and as far as atheists are concerned I would have thought the answer is ‘who?’

I have to agree that rebellion has an ugly side and I'm following what you're saying about immoral acts of rebellion/rebellion against god.

Well for those who believe in God, disbelieving is rebellion.

The question is in what way would it matter or in what way could you have an opinion on whether one is under the influence of one thing one don’t believe in as opposed to something else one doesn’t believe in?

 

[undoing]

To undoing,
Thanks for your questions.

I partly agree with you, Jesus says that those who have faith in Him do what He teaches, if one doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ then they obviously don’t have faith in Him.
So I think as far as a believer is concerned atheists who have heard what He teaches and reject it don’t believe, and as far as atheists are concerned I would have thought the answer is ‘who?’

Those who don't believe; or, those who don't love him?
I'm sort of confused, because of the way 'who' has been emphasized, I get the idea that there is some leeway, or others 'whom' can evade the label . . . ?

Well for those who believe in God, disbelieving is rebellion.

Is this a personal belief? I don't see how disbelief is rebellion when I'm not rejecting your faith, I'm just not taking it up.

The question is in what way would it matter or in what way could you have an opinion on whether one is under the influence of one thing one don’t believe in as opposed to something else one doesn’t believe in?

The whole point here is whether what I'm under the influence of controls my life and what power I have to change that at any time I care to.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To undoing,

Those who don't believe; or, those who don't love him?
I'm sort of confused, because of the way 'who' has been emphasized, I get the idea that there is some leeway, or others 'whom' can evade the label . . . ?

You ask the question who don’t love him. Who do you mean by him?

Is this a personal belief?

is yours a personal belief that you don’t believe in God, I suggest so as others do.

 

[undoing]

To undoing,

You ask the question who don’t love him. Who do you mean by him?

is yours a personal belief that you don’t believe in God, I suggest so as others do.

Mangling my post like that has destroyed considerable integrity of the context my questions were forwarded in.
No, I don't believe in "God", I'm sorry your patience has run so thin that you didn't have the time to address my questions in their proper context. I feel annoyed that this has happened because I know you had to remove the rest of the content in order to do so.
My position doesn't come from faith or personal belief, for me it's inescapable because my mind doesn't assimilate or identify as readily as many others do.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Sorry undoing but your OP question was

Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?

My answer is no, they belong with God rather than Satan, but they are at present under Satan's influence.

 

[undoing]

Sorry undoing but your OP question was

My answer is no, they belong with God rather than Satan, but they are at present under Satan's influence.

Ok, thanks for your explanation.

 

[Baptist Christian 1611]

Bright and Morning Star, I don't understand how you can scripturally back up what you said about atheists being "with" God but under Satan's influence. If your intent was to say that atheists were made by God and in His image, I understand and fully agree. But how can someone who doesn't believe in God be with God, as opposed to against God. Remember that 2 Corinthians 4:4 talks about the god of this world. Perhaps this is the god of which you say atheists are with?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Baptist Christian 1611,
Yes you are correct, and thanks for asking for a clarification. My point was that atheists belong with God even though they are currently out of relationship and in rebellion as you say because they were made by God in His image, and wishes that all shall not perish but come to repentance and eternal life.
They belong to God even though they arent with Him.

 

[undoing]

Bright and Morning Star, I don't understand how you can scripturally back up what you said about atheists being "with" God but under Satan's influence. If your intent was to say that atheists were made by God and in His image, I understand and fully agree. But how can someone who doesn't believe in God be with God, as opposed to against God. Remember that 2 Corinthians 4:4 talks about the god of this world. Perhaps this is the god of which you say atheists are with?

Doesn't "God" have everything considering it was supposedly "Him" who created everything?! Which obviously includes "Satan" and everything else. Why should some mere mortal such as myself be subject to "God's" wrath? What makes my disbelief such a crime? I'm being realistic.

To Baptist Christian 1611,
Yes you are correct, and thanks for asking for a clarification. My point was that atheists belong with God even though they are currently out of relationship and in rebellion as you say because they were made by God in His image, and wishes that all shall not perish but come to repentance and eternal life.
They belong to God even though they arent with Him.

I fail to see how non belief is rebellion, sorry. Rebellion is, to my understanding, a sort (or way) of working against another movement. This I am not doing, I am simply saying that I don't believe in the doctrine, nothing more. You may consider me neutral toward your belief and a single theist isn't going to change that.

 

[Bro_Sam]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.
Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?
Why/why not?

All of us, apart from Christ, are with Satan. That's why Jesus said, "you are of your father, the Devil".

 

[AlAyeti]

Bright and Morning Star, I don't understand how you can scripturally back up what you said about atheists being "with" God but under Satan's influence. If your intent was to say that atheists were made by God and in His image, I understand and fully agree. But how can someone who doesn't believe in God be with God, as opposed to against God. Remember that 2 Corinthians 4:4 talks about the god of this world. Perhaps this is the god of which you say atheists are with?

Actually the definition of an anti-Christ would fit the declarations made by many in the folds of atheism.

Now maybe an anti-Christ is not possessed by a demon (under the infleunce of Satan), but the very category would be in league with satanic powers and principlaities. No different than a soldier not knowing who gave the orders to send rockets down on a village of civilians but, does it under the manipulations of the person that sent the order.

I think that is in keeping with the NT position about Satan and his influence and who he influences.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To undoing,

Doesn't "God" have everything considering it was supposedly "Him" who created everything?! Which obviously includes "Satan" and everything else. Why should some mere mortal such as myself be subject to "God's" wrath? What makes my disbelief such a crime? I'm being realistic.

If you don’t believe in God how can you discuss aspects of His nature?

I fail to see how non belief is rebellion, sorry.

Well I wouldn’t expect you would. What I hope is that God touches your life so that you come to know.

 

[undoing]

All of us, apart from Christ, are with Satan. That's why Jesus said, "you are of your father, the Devil".

Thankyou Bro Sam, can you please give me the book, chapter, verse of this quote?

Actually the definition of an anti-Christ would fit the declarations made by many in the folds of atheism.

Now maybe an anti-Christ is not possessed by a demon (under the infleunce of Satan), but the very category would be in league with satanic powers and principlaities. No different than a soldier not knowing who gave the orders to send rockets down on a village of civilians but, does it under the manipulations of the person that sent the order.

I think that is in keeping with the NT position about Satan and his influence and who he influences.

What is an NT position of "Satan", I wonder?
Also, I see what you call condoned violence vs. illegal violence and how they are separated in scripture. I call this this common law and don't nessesarely equate this with scripture.

 

[undoing]

To undoing,
If you don’t believe in God how can you discuss aspects of His nature?

I do so to understand your understanding, and by adopting a stance which I expect you to adhere to, I also expect that position to be fundamental to your personal position of what "God" says and subsequently, what you believe is beyond disrepute.

Well I wouldn’t expect you would. What I hope is that God touches your life so that you come to know.

I'd love nothing more than to just say I love "God" with all my heart. I know once that happens, I'm 1) lying to myself; 2) lying to others; 3) relinquishing intellectual honesty, in all its forms; 4) making a commitment that will result in much loss of learning, living, and personal freedom; the list goes on. I also understand, for my present perspective, that I'd be living by an outdated, and hereby, useless system of morality and belief which will not benefit my decendants in a rapidly changing culture.