Am I in a state of mortal sin?

[JacktheCatholic]

As Filia clearly said, and I very clearly agreed with, not every behavior that a married person ought not engage in with another person is necesarily wrong for an unmarried couple to engage in together. Keep up, Jack.

You seem to be equating something like a woman having a breast exam for cancer with a more personal thing like a man friend rubbing her breasts. The case we are discussing is far more personal than a doctor exam.

 

[MikeK]

You seem to be equating something like a woman having a breast exam for cancer with a more personal thing like a man friend rubbing her breasts. The case we are discussing is far more personal than a doctor exam.

What are you talking about? Specifically what that I typed "seem(s) to be equating something like a woman having a breast exam for cancer with a more personal thing like a man friend rubbing her breasts"? I'll wait for your answer.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What are you talking about? Specifically what that I typed "seem(s) to be equating something like a woman having a breast exam for cancer with a more personal thing like a man friend rubbing her breasts"? I'll wait for your answer.

MikeK if you cannot see the connection then I doubt I could make you see it. The connection is there.

I just had a thought about your what you said about your wife. Is she a masseuse? If so then that explains why you are comfortable with her rubbing another man while he is cradled in her lap. Well... maybe not.

 

[katholikos]

I did something wrong and I'm not sure if its sin, and if it is if its mortal sin. Since none of you know me I'm asking you. (Yes, I am catholic)

I am in college and one of my close friends I happen to have a crush on. Well we got into a big fight recently and made up today. So we went out because I needed to buy a few things and he has a car, then we came back to my room. I dont like being alone at night and my roomate is gone so he came over for a little bit. Well after awhile we ended up in my bed watching TV (i dont have a couch or anything) and he was laying in my lap, I was rubbing his shoulder circling down his chest abd back up. I never got to his tummy, thus never got lower. We weren't talking sexual, I wasn't touching his privet areas neither was he, but he still came. I didn't notice at first, but he got all tense for a moment then relaxed. A few moments later I notced a wet mark appearing, and naturally asking what was up.

I knew I shouldn't have had him in my lap giving him a shoulder/chest rub, but I never expected that. I didn't even think you could get off without touching it. So is that sin? is it mortal sin?

What do I do?

Objectively, that is not a mortal sin. However, it is a sin to place yourself in the "near occasion" of sin, and brother were you in the near occasion of sin. But even that sin was not a mortal sin.

BUT: If your conscience was telling you that you were doing something wrong and you chose to persist in what your were doing, that might fall under the category of mortal sin, even if the "matter" was not "grave matter". Hmmmm. That sounds like a question to ask the folks at "Catholic Answers."

Let me add that I'm fairly sure that your guy IS in a state of mortal sin. He should have removed himself from the situation when he felt the.. ..err.. ..."event" approaching.

 

[MikeK]

BUT: If your conscience was telling you that you were doing something wrong and you chose to persist in what your were doing, that might fall under the category of mortal sin, even if the "matter" was not "grave matter". Hmmmm. That sounds like a question to ask the folks at "Catholic Answers."

If your conscious is telling you that something is grave matter but it isn't, you suffer from a malformed conscious. Failure to follow a malformed conscious is not grave matter and cannot be mortally sinful. Chest-rubbing, especially in the case of this girl, who did not intend to arouse her partner, is not grave matter.

Let me add that I'm fairly sure that your guy IS in a state of mortal sin.

Where was it established that he's even Catholic?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

If your conscious is telling you that something is grave matter but it isn't, you suffer from a malformed conscious. Failure to follow a malformed conscious is not grave matter and cannot be mortally sinful. Chest-rubbing, especially in the case of this girl, who did not intend to arouse her partner.

Are you referring to the same condition Martin Luther suffered from? The one where he punished himself frequently.

 

[katholikos]

If your conscious is telling you that something is grave matter but it isn't, you suffer from a malformed conscious. Failure to follow a malformed conscious is not grave matter and cannot be mortally sinful. Chest-rubbing, especially in the case of this girl, who did not intend to arouse her partner, is not grave matter.....

Man.. ..you need to get a refund on your CCD class. I don't even feel like untangling that mess

 

[geocajun]

Man.. ..you need to get a refund on your CCD class. I don't even feel like untangling that mess

Show us your theological prowess and untangle it please. Teaching the faith is a act of charity.

 

[Filia Mariae]

BUT: If your conscience was telling you that you were doing something wrong and you chose to persist in what your were doing, that might fall under the category of mortal sin, even if the "matter" was not "grave matter".

Wrong. You cannot commit a mortal sin absent grave matter.

Let me add that I'm fairly sure that your guy IS in a state of mortal sin. He should have removed himself from the situation when he felt the.. ..err.. ..."event" approaching.

You have no way of knowing that. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. How can you possibly know if the guy is in mortal sin when you don't even know if he's Catholic and understands the concept?

If your conscious is telling you that something is grave matter but it isn't, you suffer from a malformed conscious.

Right.

Man.. ..you need to get a refund on your CCD class. I don't even feel like untangling that mess

If anyone should be getting a CCD refund here, it's you. Mike understands the conditions necessary for mortal sin whereas you appear not to.

 

[katholikos]

...If anyone should be getting a CCD refund here, it's you. Mike understands the conditions necessary for mortal sin whereas you appear not to.

Is that so. Well, if you want to get technical about it:

V. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN


1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
[SIZE=-1]When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial. [/SIZE]

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart3 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
(END)
- - - - - - - - - - -


Now that thats settled, if someone THINKS they are commiting a mortal sin and they continue with the act, then they are doing what they think to be a sin and thus violating their conscience - and that is a sin. That is Church teaching, and that is what I said.

So don't ever tell me I don't know Church teaching young lady, because I do, and I'm sure I knew it long before you did.

I also know that doing dope is a sin. Ask your friend with the Martini clenching avatar how much he knows about that

 

[katholikos]

Anyways, whatever. All it takes is for me to make a simple, to the point post like the first one I made, below, and the haters come out of the woodwork. I'm outta here before I say what I really think.

Objectively, that is not a mortal sin. However, it is a sin to place yourself in the "near occasion" of sin, and brother were you in the near occasion of sin. But even that sin was not a mortal sin.

BUT: If your conscience was telling you that you were doing something wrong and you chose to persist in what your were doing, that might fall under the category of mortal sin, even if the "matter" was not "grave matter". Hmmmm. That sounds like a question to ask the folks at "Catholic Answers."

Let me add that I'm fairly sure that your guy IS in a state of mortal sin. He should have removed himself from the situation when he felt the.. ..err.. ..."event" approaching.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Is that so. Well, if you want to get technical about it:

V. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN


1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture, became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
[SIZE=-1]When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial. [/SIZE]

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart3 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
(END)
- - - - - - - - - - -


Now that thats settled, if someone THINKS they are commiting a mortal sin and they continue with the act, then they are doing what they think to be a sin and thus violating their conscience - and that is a sin. That is Church teaching, and that is what I said.

So don't ever tell me I don't know Church teaching young lady, because I do, and I'm sure I knew it long before you did.

I also know that doing dope is a sin. Ask your friend with the Martini clenching avatar how much he knows about that

One thing I felt important to highlight was this:
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart3 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

Once I am aware of a mortal sin that I was not previously I thought of tricking myself to think I could somehow continue. I am glad it was only a thought, such as the devil on my shoulder whispering bad advise. I did not know that to continue to deliberately commit the sin would be harsher then before I knew about it. Of course addictions have there place too.

 

[MikeK]

Now that thats settled, if someone THINKS they are commiting a mortal sin and they continue with the act, then they are doing what they think to be a sin and thus violating their conscience - and that is a sin. That is Church teaching, and that is what I said.

So don't ever tell me I don't know Church teaching young lady, because I do, and I'm sure I knew it long before you did.

I also know that doing dope is a sin. Ask your friend with the Martini clenching avatar how much he knows about that

Umm, I'm in my 30s. The last time I "did dope" I was in highschool. I probably smoked pot on 5-10 occasions. Scanadalous, yeah?


Look, I'm sorry that you're embarassed because you're wrong about virtually everything you type, but try to accept the correction and education you're being given with humility.

 

[Filia Mariae]

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Now that thats settled, if someone THINKS they are commiting a mortal sin and they continue with the act, then they are doing what they think to be a sin and thus violating their conscience - and that is a sin. That is Church teaching, and that is what I said.

Nope, it's not what you said. You said if someone thinks they are doing something that would constitute grave matter (even if it's not grave matter), they are committing mortal sin. I said you were wrong, that actual grave matter (not imaginary grave matter) is necessary for a sin to be mortal. The Catechism section you quoted affirms what I asserted.

So don't ever tell me I don't know Church teaching young lady, because I do, and I'm sure I knew it long before you did.

I also know that doing dope is a sin. Ask your friend with the Martini clenching avatar how much he knows about that

A. Don't call me young lady.

B. If you want to play the "I know more than you do" game, you should know I have a Masters degree in theology and am not that interested in your mistaken understanding of what constitutes mortal sin.

 

[Teshi]

No one on here can tell you about the state of your soul. I second the advice of the first few posters. If it's bothering your conscience, why not go to confession?

 

[geocajun]

Now that thats settled, if someone THINKS they are commiting a mortal sin and they continue with the act, then they are doing what they think to be a sin and thus violating their conscience - and that is a sin. That is Church teaching, and that is what I said.

So don't ever tell me I don't know Church teaching young lady, because I do, and I'm sure I knew it long before you did.

I also know that doing dope is a sin. Ask your friend with the Martini clenching avatar how much he knows about that

rofl! You are so far out of your league arguing with FM that its funny.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Hey---we were just talking about people selectively applying their self-interpretation of Chruch teaching in another thread--good to see it's alive and well...

Oh Filia....lol! You made my day in this thread...

 

[Lilmissykato]

Please don't fight

 

[wiggbuggie]

poor guy looks like he didn't last long anyways no I don't think it was a sin since your were only rubbing him and not in a sexual manner

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

My wife is allowed to do as she pleases.

Show me the Catholic teaching that says very specifically that "Lying in laps and rubbing chests is for a marital relationship". I kinda think you're making it up.

I am agreeing with Charlie here, Boyfriends and girlfriends can kiss, holdhands and give shoulder rubs. it was not if they were getting their Freak on. He was a young guy and Opps things happen. But Her intent was NOT sexual. I think people here are distorting scripture.