Am I expecting too much?

[CopticGirl]

Hi all,

I'm interested in your opinion on my situation with my bf.

We've beent together for a little over 5 years now. We're both 23, I just finished college and got my Bachelors this month, and he will get his in a year.

So we've discussed marriage, and have both decided that it is something we want.

Here's the problem. He's a some what religous Baptist and I'm a more religious Coptic Orthodox. I will not marry outside of my church, and he has thus decided to learn about my church and convert. The problem, is that I don't think he's making enough progress. Now, we are basically planning on getting engaged when he graduates in a year. So, someone might say he has a whole year, but we made this decision a long time ago. For at least 2 years now, he has decided that he will convert. When I doubt it, and ask him, he reassures me each time that he will convert. But I don't think he's making enough progress. I don't just want him to go through the motions of converting, I want him to actually be a part of the church. I want him to know the liturgy and understand why we do things the way we do it. We've had discussions about it before, and I've told him that I don't think he's learned enough, and he got all upset, but eventually agreed to try harder. That was months ago, and I have not seen a change.

My brother went through a similar situation. His wife was Jewish and she converted, and they married in our Church. But with her, she knows nothing of our church. I don't want that to be the case with my bf.

Does this make sense?

I guess my question is am I stressing about this too much? Or should I expect to see more progress, even though we are a year away from getting engaged?

My main issue is that if he's not going to convert, then I'm going to have to end this relationship. I love my bf so much, but I will not leave my church for him. When I think about it, if we marry and he isn't religious enough, it will have an effect on the rest of our lives, and our children's lives. Know what I mean?

Let me know your thoughts.

God Bless.

 

[Lizzi4Christ]

I agree very much with Blue.

The only reason that anyone should ever convert is because they truly want to. Converting for any person, whether it be girlfriend, boyfriend, parents, siblings, friends, etc is wrong. It's the wrong reason period.

If he's continually putting off converting, chances are that he really doesn't want to. And it's not right to ask him to if the only reason is you. His relationship with God is more important then his relationship with you.

Ultimately, if you really care about this guy, you'll care more about his relationship with God. And if he doesn't want to convert, then it's not right to make him and the relationship should end.

 

[invisiblebabe]

This question may be off-topic... but I haven't heard of Coptic Orthodox, so I am wondering exactly how similar they are to other Orthodox churches, and how different they are from Baptist?

If they are a far cry from Baptist, then I would agree with what Blue Impulse said.

If they are not too far off, I would reconsider why you would absolutely have to marry someone from your denomination. After all, theology is important, and the essentials absolutely have to be there, but when it comes down to it, it is about the individual's relationship with Christ, not the religion, per se.

 

[CopticGirl]

Well, first and foremost, thank you for your responses. They really gave me something to think about.

Blue, you are right. I can't expect him to change who he is. That is why I have always told him that I want him to be more religious more himself--not to please me. I have this inner desire to just learn more and more about Christianity. But he does not have that so much. I told him that I want him to want to learn more.

Your example, of the Catholic-Coptic marriage, is a lot easier than my situation because the churches are quite similar. They are both sacramental churches and worship in a similar manner. But going from Baptist to Coptic is very different, its like two ends of the spectrum. My bf knows for sure that I will not leave my church, so I know he isn't waiting on me to give in.

I had a discussion with my boyfriend today. I told him that if he was serious about this then I have to see more progress. He assured me that he does intend to convert and that he has learned a lot about my church. In a way, I do think he has learned about my church, but the problem is that he doesn't have experience with it. He has only attended a few services there. He has not really put what he has learned into practice. He said he is going to make an effort to do more and be more active in my church. That is important, because my church is so traditional and different than any protestant church.

We also discussed why he was converting. He said that originally he decided to convert because of me. But now, he says that even if we were to break up, he would not go back to the Baptist Church. So I think that is important--that he's not just doing it for me. He said he thinks that my church is correct and it feels right to him.

Someone mentioned above that his relationship with God is more important than his relationship with me. I agree. Nevertheless, through my encouraging he has become more religious and closer to God. So my encouraging him to learn more about my church, is helping him learn more about God in general.

Anyways, thank you again for your responses. I will definately take your suggestions to heart.

God Bless.

 

[InTheFlame]

CG, I found what you wrote quite reassuring. It sounds as though he's doing this of his own accord. One thing I'm still trying to learn is to be careful of 'supervising' another person's faith too closely. Generally God teaches us lessons in our heart, and sometimes those lessons take a while to show up in particular behaviour. So I guess I'm saying be watchful, but try not to push too much. Set limits if you need to... eg. not getting engaged until he's coming to church every week and involved in study groups (or whatever else is standard in the coptic church! Sorry, I'm fairly ignorant about church life in the orthodox denoms).

 

[Singin4Him]

My question to you is, do you both have similar relationships with God? Do you both believe Jesus Christ died for you? This is a HUGE factor in Christianity, this is something that is far more important than a religious practice. Being religious is not as important as the relationship with God. Being baptist myself I will say that we put much more emphasis on our relationships with God rather than on traditional religious practice. We believe we do not have to work to get to heaven but just have a personal relationship. If may be that your bf is not doing much towards converting because he is not used to doing these things and it may also be that he does not feel the need to do these things as much as you do for that reason as well.

To ask someone to convert is a huge thing, he should not just jump into this for marriage he should do it because he feels lead to do it for much greater reasons and much more personal reasons. Please don't nag him because he's not doing it quick enough for you, this may be something that takes a lot of thought for him. He may be saying he's going to do it but let him do it in his time not your time.

Honestly being a protestant myself I can see it would be a very confusing tough thing to do. As Blue said, I'm afraid you are treading into some dangerous waters here. You're talking about marriage with someone who you have asked to convert basically FOR YOU, this decision could possibly cause harm to your relationships and your marriage in the future if it is done just for you. He can say all he wants that he isn't just doing it for you, but the question is would he have done this if you were not in the picture at all? I've seen many relationships and marriage become torn because of religious differences, you need to approach this more delicately withoug nagging him. He needs time to truly make this decisions for himself, give him all the time he needs. Why rush him? Marriage should not be rushed and even more converting to another religion should certainly NOT be rused into.

 

[CopticGirl]

My question to you is, do you both have similar relationships with God? Do you both believe Jesus Christ died for you? This is a HUGE factor in Christianity, this is something that is far more important than a religious practice. Being religious is not as important as the relationship with God. Being baptist myself I will say that we put much more emphasis on our relationships with God rather than on traditional religious practice. We believe we do not have to work to get to heaven but just have a personal relationship. If may be that your bf is not doing much towards converting because he is not used to doing these things and it may also be that he does not feel the need to do these things as much as you do for that reason as well.

I know everything about the Baptist faith--just as if I were actually Baptist. I know you guys believe in slavation through faith alone--I assume that's what you're refering to. But, as I said a few posts up, my boyfriend is not happy with the Baptist church, and he does not believe in faith alone. So I don't think its that he's doubting the necessity of attending the church services.

To ask someone to convert is a huge thing, he should not just jump into this for marriage he should do it because he feels lead to do it for much greater reasons and much more personal reasons. Please don't nag him because he's not doing it quick enough for you, this may be something that takes a lot of thought for him. He may be saying he's going to do it but let him do it in his time not your time.

The problem I have here, is that I have spent 5 years with him, and we have discussed this for at least 2 years now. I have told him that if we can't get married in a Coptic church, then we can't get married--and if we can't get married, I will have to end the relationship, (sadly). If this relationship is not going to work, I would like to know as soon as possible. I'm at a point in my life where I want to move on. I finished college, got a new job, and I'm ready to start thinking about marriage and that sort of stuff. So I'm not just nagging him for the sake of being annoying. Does that make sense?

Honestly being a protestant myself I can see it would be a very confusing tough thing to do. As Blue said, I'm afraid you are treading into some dangerous waters here. You're talking about marriage with someone who you have asked to convert basically FOR YOU, this decision could possibly cause harm to your relationships and your marriage in the future if it is done just for you. He can say all he wants that he isn't just doing it for you, but the question is would he have done this if you were not in the picture at all? I've seen many relationships and marriage become torn because of religious differences, you need to approach this more delicately withoug nagging him. He needs time to truly make this decisions for himself, give him all the time he needs. Why rush him? Marriage should not be rushed and even more converting to another religion should certainly NOT be rused into.

As I explained a few posts up, he agrees with my church. He is not just converting for me. He said even if we break up, he will not remain Baptist. I really don't see how I could be doing harm, if I see with my own two eyes that he is growing closer to God through this whole process. Through my encouragement, he has learned more, is praying more, and is reading his Bible more. I don't think I'm doing harm when he has become more religious.

I understand that religious differences are a big deal, and that is why I want him to know my church before we get engaged. As I said before, I do not want him to just going through the motions.

Thank you for your advice, Singin4Him.

So I guess I'm saying be watchful, but try not to push too much. Set limits if you need to... eg. not getting engaged until he's coming to church every week and involved in study groups (or whatever else is standard in the coptic church!

InTheFlame,
You are definately right here. I do not plan to get engaged until we are both happy with everything. While I would love to get engaged tomorrow and start planning a wedding, I'm smarter than that, and I don't want to rush into everything. Instead of trying to push him, I'm trying to be encouraging--hopefully there's a big enough difference that he doesn't feel pressured.

Thanks for your advice as well.

God Bless.

 

[bliz]

I thinhk you need to break off the relationship.

At whatever point in your life you knew that you would only marry a Coptic Christian, you should have not dated anyone who was not already one. But you did not do that. You dated this guy and you now expect him to not only convert, but to do so in a particular time frame and with all the requisit emotions and knowledge. Yes, you are asking too much.

It seems clear to me that you love you church more than him. Your church is not God - God you should love more than him, but not your church. The fact that you will not marry him if he is not a converted member makes it very clear which comes first in your life. And therefore, for his happiness, for your happiness, so that you both may have wonderful marriages that last the rest of your lives, you need to break off the relationship now.

 

[CopticGirl]

I thinhk you need to break off the relationship.

At whatever point in your life you knew that you would only marry a Coptic Christian, you should have not dated anyone who was not already one. But you did not do that. You dated this guy and you now expect him to not only convert, but to do so in a particular time frame and with all the requisit emotions and knowledge. Yes, you are asking too much.

It seems clear to me that you love you church more than him. Your church is not God - God you should love more than him, but not your church. The fact that you will not marry him if he is not a converted member makes it very clear which comes first in your life. And therefore, for his happiness, for your happiness, so that you both may have wonderful marriages that last the rest of your lives, you need to break off the relationship now.

I appreciate your advice, but a few corrections I must make.

When my boyfriend and I started dating, I was 17. At that point in my life, it didn't matter to me whether or not I married in my church, or whether or not I married a Coptic Christian. Later in my life, I realized the importance of marrying someone with the same beliefs as me. So I did not start dating him knowing I would only marry a Copt.

And it is not that I love my church more than my boyfriend. It is that God and my faith come before anything else in the entire world. I believe with all of my heart that being an Orthodox Christian is the right path to God. Do I think the other paths to God are wrong? Not necessarily, but nevertheless I'm not going to leave something that I know is right. I am not going to leave the church that I grew up in that brought me and my whole family close to God. So please, don't tell me that I love my church more than God, that is just straight out rude.

The reason I will not marry him unless he converts, is because first off I think it is important to be with someone who is on the same spiritual level as you. That way you can grow together and encourage each other. Second, in my church, they only allow marriages between those that are in communion with our church. So a Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim...etc can not marry in my church. The third reason, say for example we did get married outside of my church and we both keep our own faith. What happens when we have children? Are they going to go to both churches, only one, which one, or none? I think with chidren it is important to raise them with a stable, consistent message of the importance of Christ.

God Bless.

 

[bliz]

No need to make any corrections. I understood you quite well.

At some point after you started to date this young man you came to the decision that you would only marry another Coptic Christian. That is a decision you are entitled to make. Therefore, then and there, no matter how long you had been dating your boyfriend, right then you should have ended the relationship. At such time as he converted, then you could begin to date him again.

He has not converted. So, every day since you made that decision about your future spouse, you have been growing closer and closer to someone who you knew you could not marry. That was a foolish decision, and you are paying for it now.

We are not taking about your faith in Christ or your desire to love and serve God and raise children who will strive to please God. We are talking about which traditions you follow and what emphisis you place on spiritual things and what bulding you walk into to worship. OK, I won't say that you love your church more than you love him. But clearly you are putting your desire to marry someone who is a Copt ahead of your desire to marry him.

Converting to your denomination will not put him on the same spiritual level. It will put him in the same church but which church one worships in has nothing to do with one's personal relationship to God or one's depth of Biblical or spiritual knowledge . Coptic Christians do not have superior relationships to God than Baptists do. And, for the record, Baptists do not have superior relationships to God than Coptic Christians do, either. But, trust me, many of them think they do. Just like you think that you do.

You will marry this guy if he changes which church is is a member of. One should never marry someone thinking that they will change them. You not only want the shange in name only, you want him to throughly believe and embrace your particular branch of the faith. You want to change him. Even if he does convert, he will have done so to please you and so that he could marry you. This does not make a good start for a marriage.

Break it off. It's not the advice you want, but it is the only advice I have for you. You only seem to be interested in how you can get him to do what you want. Love does not work that way.

He should have the opportunity to marry someone who loves him for who and what he is and not need to make major changes in himself to prove that he is worthy of their love. If he has not converted by now he is not dong this becasue he desires to do it, he is doing it to please you. In the long run, you will not be satisfied with this.

 

[Sketcher]

Listen to bliz, she's right.

 

[lady_of_god]

Bliz makes very good points and I absolutely agree... she said it all.

 

[KristianJ]

No need to make any corrections. I understood you quite well.

At some point after you started to date this young man you came to the decision that you would only marry another Coptic Christian. That is a decision you are entitled to make. Therefore, then and there, no matter how long you had been dating your boyfriend, right then you should have ended the relationship. At such time as he converted, then you could begin to date him again.

He has not converted. So, every day since you made that decision about your future spouse, you have been growing closer and closer to someone who you knew you could not marry. That was a foolish decision, and you are paying for it now.

We are not taking about your faith in Christ or your desire to love and serve God and raise children who will strive to please God. We are talking about which traditions you follow and what emphisis you place on spiritual things and what bulding you walk into to worship. OK, I won't say that you love your church more than you love him. But clearly you are putting your desire to marry someone who is a Copt ahead of your desire to marry him.

Converting to your denomination will not put him on the same spiritual level. It will put him in the same church but which church one worships in has nothing to do with one's personal relationship to God or one's depth of Biblical or spiritual knowledge . Coptic Christians do not have superior relationships to God than Baptists do. And, for the record, Baptists do not have superior relationships to God than Coptic Christians do, either. But, trust me, many of them think they do. Just like you think that you do.

You will marry this guy if he changes which church is is a member of. One should never marry someone thinking that they will change them. You not only want the shange in name only, you want him to throughly believe and embrace your particular branch of the faith. You want to change him. Even if he does convert, he will have done so to please you and so that he could marry you. This does not make a good start for a marriage.

Break it off. It's not the advice you want, but it is the only advice I have for you. You only seem to be interested in how you can get him to do what you want. Love does not work that way.

He should have the opportunity to marry someone who loves him for who and what he is and not need to make major changes in himself to prove that he is worthy of their love. If he has not converted by now he is not dong this becasue he desires to do it, he is doing it to please you. In the long run, you will not be satisfied with this.

It's tough to set a stipulation like this on a relationship, even if the one who's converting has had difficulties within their "native" denominations. From what I've read in this thread, it will be a long while before engagement could become feasible, so I have to agree with bliz - regrettable as it will be, you'll probably need to break this off before too long. To take such a big step and not reach the goal, for whatever the motivation is, would not only have adverse effects on him, but probably on you as well. When one party in the relationship has the wrong focus, it's obvious that both of you cannot proceed in the same direction.

With all due respect, in response to the question in the thread title, I think that you are expecting too much and that your intents and beliefs on marriage within the church you belong to would be better served, and have more long term benefit, if you were with someone that didn't have to convert. And in that case it would require trusting God that He would bring someone into your life with those same convictions and beliefs. Good luck with whichever path you choose