Am I doomed?

Scholar in training · Dec 5, 2005

Boomygrrl, I would be interested in discussing this issue in depth but at the moment I am pressed for time. I will post back here later with more information if you would like.

I do have a question: you said that you believe in a higher power (a god? a force?). Would you be interested in material (I prefer the classical/evidentiary approach, myself) offering evidence for the existence of God? Have you looked at the Bible with its fuller social context in view? One source I have come across that broadly explains the socio-cultural background of individual books of the Bible (and in some cases the Bible as a whole) is Tektonics.org. Understanding the Bible with its socio-cultural background in mind allows one to understand the Bible as those who wrote it did, and it can vivify concepts that we already know, but have always understood through the lens of a 21st century Western mindset. A few of the many topics covered in this method of study are the high-context nature of the ANE, Hebrew block logic, the Trinity, the role and purpose of the Mosaic Law, oral tradition, the Semitic Totality Concept, what hell is - and what it isn't, as well as many other things.

whitestar · Dec 5, 2005

Boomygrrl said:
17 or so years ago (when I was 17...I'm almost 35 now), I started questioning Christianity. It wasn't overnight. In fact, I am still trying to figure things out. It was/still is a slow process. I haven't made any decisions, such as "there is no God," or "Christianity has to be wrong." I just seriously doubt it. I want to know for sure. I don't think there really is a way to know one way or the other. So, I studied, analyzed, came to conclusions, maybe good ones, maybe bad ones, but I have given this almost 18 years of thought...believe me.
I was wondering why people would want to worship a God who tortured and killed everyone (except Noah and his family). I don't understand how people can look at how God's behaviors are depicted in the bible (concerning many of the OT atrocities) and think this is good. That is actually for another debate, and I don't want to debate it...as that wasn't what made me question God originally...that came much later, after I thought "if there is a God, I don't think the bible depicted him well at all."

Boomygrrl

Ok so it wasn't just any one thing that caused this, but a gradual doubt over time. At age seventeen we are all pretty guible and I image your athestis boyfriends point of view rubbed off on you and greatly influenced you. The statements that God tortured and killed people is something commonly said by athesist...who cannot 'see' spiritual what was really going on. By the way God never had anyone tortured in the bible...so I am not sure what you are refering to here. As far as the flood goes, it surprises me with as much studying as you have done that you didn't read the reasons God did this...the bible tells us that God was totally broken hearted that people had grown so wicked...so much so that He was 'sorry' He ever made us.

I am sure you read about the horrible things Hilter did to the Jews and others...the so called 'medical experiments' being the worse...and you have read about other horrors in our world history, right? Ok image that and worse at this time...
Genesis 6

5Now the LORD observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently and totally evil. 6So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them. It broke his heart. 7And the LORD said, "I will completely wipe out this human race that I have created. Yes, and I will destroy all the animals and birds, too. I am sorry I ever made them."

Now we know later in bible history that people obviously got sinnful again and many were woshiping false gods. They would bury their children inside of the temple walls to these false gods too...can you image the horrible death those children went through? Slow and terrible. And they would throw their babies into fire as scarfices for these gods also. As awful as these things were, and Hilter and everything in our history, it must have been so much worse for God to have no choice but to wipe everything out and start over again. Drowning is one of the least painful ways to die. Or do you think it would have been better to let such horrible people keep on abusing their children instead? And the children that survived would grown up doing the same to their children and on and on and on! Sad to say in many parts of the world its getting as bad as it was back then...

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=006
David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible

. (5-8) The incredible wickedness of man in Noah's day.
a. To say every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually is to say a lot. It means there was no aspect of man's nature not corrupted by sin.

i. "A more emphatic statement of the wickedness of the human heart is hardly conceivable." (Vriezen, quoted in Kidner)

ii. Jesus said "as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matthew 24:37). In other words, the conditions of the world before the coming of Jesus will be like the conditions of the world before the flood: exploding population (Genesis 6:1), sexual perversion (Genesis 6:2), demonic activity (Genesis 6:2), constant evil in the heart of man (Genesis 6:5), and widespread corruption and violence (Genesis 6:11).

b. The Lord was sorry that He had made man . . . He was grieved in His heart: God's sorrow at man, and the grief in His heart, are striking. Is creation out of control? Was God hoping for something better, but unable to achieve it? No. God knew all along that this was how things would turn out, but our text tells us loud and clear that as God sees His plan for the ages unfold, it affects Him. God is not unfeeling in the face of human sin and rebellion.

c. While God commanded all the earth to be cleansed of this pollution, He found one man with whom to begin again: Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah didn't earn grace; he found it. No one earns it, but we can all find it.

i. It was true then, it is true now: But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more (Romans 5:20).

When people try to judge what God did, they try to put God in a human position...and we are so limited on what we can see. Since the Lord can see into the future and see the hearts and minds of everyone, His judgment will be better then ours. He saw the death of the children and babies as saving their souls so they could come live with Him in Heaven and not continue to suffer on earth...not grown up learning to being evil people that committed such horrible things they could not be saved. God does not see physical life like we do...its not nearly as important to Him as our souls are.

Now people will argue and say God should have just poofed those wicked people and made them 'nice'....but that would take away their free will. And as long as it took Noah to actually build the ark, they knew what was coming yet refused to change their ways.

I think people reject the God in the OT partly based on a humanize viewpoint...find it appalling a Creator could kill His own creations yet, we do it everyday! We call it 'women's rights' though...we kill our own creations...our babies all the time and think nothing of it.... Now image if God chose to have the ones to die, torn from limb to limb each time? Yet if you study the way God had them die, or had others put them to death, it was always a quick death. Not long suffering, torturing death as suggested. I think the real objection to God doing this is not wanting to accept that something bigger then us has control over things and not us...

We always want to be in control ...and many find anything that has control over us, to be something to be denied or rejected, even if that something loves us.
See if your views have become what is called, Humanism...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1977
Christianity and Humanism

You say you have no problems with Jesus, but yet say you think He was only human...if you really had no problems with Him and what He said, you would agree that He was indeed God...since He said so. So in reality, you do have a problem with Jesus....right?

God bless
WhiteStar

FireOfGod · Dec 5, 2005

Boomygrrl said:
I became a Christian when I was 7 years old. I was raised Southern Baptist. I used to believe Jesus was my savior, that he died on the cross for my and our sins, I asked Jesus to be my lord and savior, and asked God to forgive me. Ten years later, I started reading apologetics to try to convert my then boyfriend, who was atheist. The more I started thinking about Christianity, studying it more, reading the apologetics for it, the more I started to doubt it and became very skeptical. Throughout the years, I've been studying it more and praying, but ironically I've drifted further and further away. Instead of being more sure, I'm more confused. I am now almost 35 years old and have been struggling with this for over half my life. I went from full faith, loving God, dedicated...to confused, skeptical. I don't believe that Jesus is God or my savior anymore and I have doubts about God, although I wouldn't say I'm atheist. Perhaps there is a higher power that created us.

That's my background info. I've been searching and searching and haven't gotten closer to God in the process. I'm getting to the point of giving up, because it isn't looking better, it's looking worse (in the perspective of re-converting to Christianity). So, here's my question:

Would the following prayer be good enough for God?

"Dear God, I'm not so sure if you really exist. I wish I knew. If I knew you existed, I would want to get to know you and follow your plan for me. I'm not sure if there is a plan for me--to follow Christ, to follow Mohammed, to follow someone else. I wish I could follow my heart, but it leads me nowhere. If I follow my brain, as I now perceive things to be, then I cannot believe/follow you. If you are out there, please give me some guidance and direction. If you are real, then I hope you know me better than I know myself and can touch me in a way that will leave me no doubt what to believe and what to do. Thank you."

If this prayer isn't good enough, then I am doomed. I cannot believe what I do not believe.

Boomygrrl

I understand... It can be extremely hard to believe if you haven't actually seen God or manifestations of God. Like for you, you may have had things happen over the years where you ask "Why would God do this to me? I don't even know if there is such a God, that He would let this happen to me". But little do you know, God is right there. But there is also another person there too. The "bad guy". Which makes the situation, and then makes it even worse.

You aren't doomed... There is hope, of course. There is no prayer that isn't "good" enough. Prayer is simply talking to God. The mere fact that you are talking about God as if he were real shows that you know He indeed does exist, but you just want to see Him manifest. You want the power, not just the talk, not just the theories, and not just the apologetics.

Ask him to show you, to touch you, and mess you up... in a good way, of course. He'll do it.

Edial · Dec 6, 2005

Boomygrrl said:
Edial (from post 20)

Sorry for not responding back in a timely manner. you're right, that if all I did was ask questions and not try to actively answer my questions, then that wouldn't be good. I have talked to mature Christians.

Are you talking with one now?

"Been there done that" philosophy is often misleading in cases like these.
One can erroneosly conclude that one accomplished a certain task - so let's go on to the next task.

What happened when you spoke to that mature believer then?

In these times God chose to speak primarily through the Bible and through people. Why? I do not know that.

However, he also looks at the intent of a heart.

Maybe I misunderstood your intent.
Do you want to come back? Why?

You need to worship? To relate? Not to be alone?
Is it because your boyfriend is a Catholic? Your family?

The "Why?" is the intent.
Intent is what God looks at.

Often, one cannot explain why. Which is good, very good.

Boomygrrl said:
I had repented to Jesus when I was younger.

Good, good, very good.
Once one can establish your intent then (as much as you can remember) one can built on it.

Boomygrrl said:
I still ask God for forgiveness during those moments I think there is a God and that he might be listening to me.

But we do not even know what to ask God for forgiveness for.
For yelling at my parent? For stealing? For smacking my child? For cursing?

To ask for forgiveness for all this is good.
But the point is (and there are other technical points to it, such as preventing retribution from evil), that the sin is offensive to God.

I do not expect anyone to see that right off the bat, most of the Christians do not see that (in real life, in theory, yes). They just ask for forgiveness since they do not want retribution (what goes around, comes around).

Intent, intent of the heart.

Boomygrrl said:
I am not perfect, that's for sure. Usually, I try to work out my "sinful" side by learning from my mistakes, asking people who I have wronged to forgive me, and find better ways to solve my problems that doesn't involve hurting people. I'm actually a goody-two shoes for the most part...

Good, good.

Boomygrrl said:
I won't lie...

I noticed that from your other posts at the Forums.

Boomygrrl said:
I'm not "perfect," and I have done wrong, but this isn't about pride, if that's what you're implying..

Forget the pride - only idiots are proud.

One really needs to be a "flounder" to be proud while crawling on all 4 on a planet that is spinning and racing aroung the Sun.

And when we do fall into the "idiot-mode" - God will break it.

Pride is the most common excuse.

When God is "silent", it is not pride.

Boomygrrl said:
I'm not trying to search other religions. I just want to believe in reality. ..

Excellent statement. Excellent.
That is exactly the very reason God became man, so we see reality.
Our reality. (There are many other theological reasons besides this, of course).
But when God became flesh - this is reality.

You want what he provided. You and God are on the same wavelenght.

Boomygrrl said:
I made the remark about Mohammed, because if Islam is true, then yes, I want to believe it. I seriously doubt it's true. I did investigate Unitarianism for awhile...I didn't like it. I was hoping it would be like it's founders in the 1800's. Instead, it was an "anything goes" type of religion. I didn't like that I went to a church that didn't pray to God...that didn't make sense.

Good, good. You look for sense.

Boomygrrl said:
Never implied Christ lied. In fact, the "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" argument isn't convincing.

It is not convincing. It is convincing to Christians, but not to many non-Christians.
And many Christians do not realize that. They do not.

Apologetics' purpose it to "defend" the faith. Defend.

When, for example, the Atheists or Agnostics or people of specific religions state this or that is wrong - Apologetics is used to present that this and that is not wrong. It presents continuity, lack of contradictions, another "way of looking" on things. And by looking that way - contradictions are eliminated.

Many that question refuse to look at it "that way" - which is OK.

Apologetics is not meant to convince one of faith.

It is meant to present that there are NO contradictions once one looks through certain set of glasses.

Many Christians put too much faith in apologetics and theology - and it is their downfall and trap.

Apologetics and theology never saved, never clicked, never truly communicated, since true communication is a spiritual one that transcends all reason, all words.

That new communication uses words and reason, yet transcends it.

Many use apologetics to get faith - ridiculous. Apologetics is not made for that.

Since Apologetics confirms the faith of many Christians, they think that it will have the same effect on non-Christians.
They are mistaken. Sadly and gravely mistaken.

They are using the wrong key to open a heart.

One cannot get faith from anything else, but the gospel.

Boomygrrl said:
Perhaps the writers of the bible lied or embellished. That comes closer to what I believe, actually. Jesus said some great things, most of it at least.

If one lied or embelished, it needs to be proven.
One is innocent UNTIL proven guilty.

Believe it or not, in 2000 years there was not found to be even one place that can be proven to be contradictory. Not one.

Do I present a challenge? NO.
The challenge was presented a long time ago by Jesus Christ and God Himself that the Bible is called Scriptures and all in it is inspired by Him.

Now, many can look at the Scriptures with their own "sets of glasses" and state that it is incorrect. But once one looks at it with the proper INTENT (here is that word again ), the great doors open, the mystery unravels, the eyes open, the book speaks, the great X (the symbol for treasure) is finally unearthed.

Good apologetics comes in when a the Treasure is defended. But when the attackers cannot see the treasure - this apologetics will not do, since they dig in the wrong place.

I was talking about good apologetics. Please understand, even in the sites that you mentioned (and many Christians use these sites) some of the apologetics are "dogs", based on the incorrect premise, arrogance, flippancy and self-righteousness - not the Scriptures (although they "quote" Scriptures).

Boomygrrl said:
I have no problem with Jesus, by the way. But, as of now, I do see him as a man, not God.

Boomygrrl

You just echoed my words when I was an atheist.
With one exception (maybe it was left unsaid on your part), I actually, somehow liked the guy. I felt bad for his sufferings.
I could never understand why they were whipping that dude when I was listening to Jesus Christ Superstar, over and over and over and over again.

Thanks,
Ed

DIANAC · Dec 6, 2005

Edial unearthed. You just echoed my words when I was an atheist. With one exception (maybe it was left unsaid on your part) said:
over and over and over again...
Hi, I am Ed's older sister and remember those days when as a teen he would play the Jesus Christ SuperStar record (very loudly) over and over and over. I used to get huge headaches from that. I did not understand it then.
Boomygrrl, I am wondering what appologetics did you read. If you remember the specifics of the author's writing that made an impact on you.
Take care
Diana

Edial · Dec 6, 2005

DIANAC said:
over and over and over again...
Hi, I am Ed's older sister and remember those days when as a teen he would play the Jesus Christ SuperStar record (very loudly) over and over and over. I used to get huge headaches from that. I did not understand it then.
Boomygrrl, I am wondering what appologetics did you read. If you remember the specifics of the author's writing that made an impact on you.
Take care
Diana

Well, some would say there was another reason to play it over and over again.
How would one get rid of the older sister just simply would not "go away" ?
She likes Bach, Mozart and played piano all the time.

I liked rock and ... "Jesus Christ Superstar" .

Thanks,
Ed

Martinez · Dec 6, 2005

Hey there Boomygirl,

Well let me start by saying that if God did indeed did doom people then you might be doomed.

but I'm glad to say that HE doesn't!

leave the theology alone for a while and look this up on your search engine,

Heavenly dog.

its by charles sagel?, He's really sarchastec (man I can't spell) I really dig his style.

when I was suffering with a case of the "oh oh I'm going to Hells" I found His site and was really blessed by it.

hope that helps God bless!

Boomygrrl · Dec 7, 2005

Scholar in training said:
Boomygrrl, I would be interested in discussing this issue in depth but at the moment I am pressed for time. I will post back here later with more information if you would like.

I do have a question: you said that you believe in a higher power (a god? a force?). Would you be interested in material (I prefer the classical/evidentiary approach, myself) offering evidence for the existence of God? Have you looked at the Bible with its fuller social context in view? One source I have come across that broadly explains the socio-cultural background of individual books of the Bible (and in some cases the Bible as a whole) is Tektonics.org. Understanding the Bible with its socio-cultural background in mind allows one to understand the Bible as those who wrote it did, and it can vivify concepts that we already know, but have always understood through the lens of a 21st century Western mindset. A few of the many topics covered in this method of study are the high-context nature of the ANE, Hebrew block logic, the Trinity, the role and purpose of the Mosaic Law, oral tradition, the Semitic Totality Concept, what hell is - and what it isn't, as well as many other things.

I sometimes believe in a higher power...most of the time actually. Sometimes I doubt that as well. Thanks for the website. Do you have any suggestions of books to read?

Thanks,
Boomygrrl

Boomygrrl · Dec 7, 2005

whitestar said:
Ok so it wasn't just any one thing that caused this, but a gradual doubt over time. At age seventeen we are all pretty guible and I image your athestis boyfriends point of view rubbed off on you and greatly influenced you. The statements that God tortured and killed people is something commonly said by athesist...who cannot 'see' spiritual what was really going on. By the way God never had anyone tortured in the bible...so I am not sure what you are refering to here. As far as the flood goes, it surprises me with as much studying as you have done that you didn't read the reasons God did this...the bible tells us that God was totally broken hearted that people had grown so wicked...so much so that He was 'sorry' He ever made us.

I am sure you read about the horrible things Hilter did to the Jews and others...the so called 'medical experiments' being the worse...and you have read about other horrors in our world history, right? Ok image that and worse at this time...
Genesis 6

5Now the LORD observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently and totally evil. 6So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them. It broke his heart. 7And the LORD said, "I will completely wipe out this human race that I have created. Yes, and I will destroy all the animals and birds, too. I am sorry I ever made them."

Now we know later in bible history that people obviously got sinnful again and many were woshiping false gods. They would bury their children inside of the temple walls to these false gods too...can you image the horrible death those children went through? Slow and terrible. And they would throw their babies into fire as scarfices for these gods also. As awful as these things were, and Hilter and everything in our history, it must have been so much worse for God to have no choice but to wipe everything out and start over again. Drowning is one of the least painful ways to die. Or do you think it would have been better to let such horrible people keep on abusing their children instead? And the children that survived would grown up doing the same to their children and on and on and on! Sad to say in many parts of the world its getting as bad as it was back then...

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=006
David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible

. (5-8) The incredible wickedness of man in Noah's day.
a. To say every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually is to say a lot. It means there was no aspect of man's nature not corrupted by sin.

i. "A more emphatic statement of the wickedness of the human heart is hardly conceivable." (Vriezen, quoted in Kidner)

ii. Jesus said "as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matthew 24:37). In other words, the conditions of the world before the coming of Jesus will be like the conditions of the world before the flood: exploding population (Genesis 6:1), sexual perversion (Genesis 6:2), demonic activity (Genesis 6:2), constant evil in the heart of man (Genesis 6:5), and widespread corruption and violence (Genesis 6:11).

b. The Lord was sorry that He had made man . . . He was grieved in His heart: God's sorrow at man, and the grief in His heart, are striking. Is creation out of control? Was God hoping for something better, but unable to achieve it? No. God knew all along that this was how things would turn out, but our text tells us loud and clear that as God sees His plan for the ages unfold, it affects Him. God is not unfeeling in the face of human sin and rebellion.

c. While God commanded all the earth to be cleansed of this pollution, He found one man with whom to begin again: Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah didn't earn grace; he found it. No one earns it, but we can all find it.

i. It was true then, it is true now: But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more (Romans 5:20).

When people try to judge what God did, they try to put God in a human position...and we are so limited on what we can see. Since the Lord can see into the future and see the hearts and minds of everyone, His judgment will be better then ours. He saw the death of the children and babies as saving their souls so they could come live with Him in Heaven and not continue to suffer on earth...not grown up learning to being evil people that committed such horrible things they could not be saved. God does not see physical life like we do...its not nearly as important to Him as our souls are.

Now people will argue and say God should have just poofed those wicked people and made them 'nice'....but that would take away their free will. And as long as it took Noah to actually build the ark, they knew what was coming yet refused to change their ways.

I think people reject the God in the OT partly based on a humanize viewpoint...find it appalling a Creator could kill His own creations yet, we do it everyday! We call it 'women's rights' though...we kill our own creations...our babies all the time and think nothing of it.... Now image if God chose to have the ones to die, torn from limb to limb each time? Yet if you study the way God had them die, or had others put them to death, it was always a quick death. Not long suffering, torturing death as suggested. I think the real objection to God doing this is not wanting to accept that something bigger then us has control over things and not us...

We always want to be in control ...and many find anything that has control over us, to be something to be denied or rejected, even if that something loves us.
See if your views have become what is called, Humanism...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1977
Christianity and Humanism

You say you have no problems with Jesus, but yet say you think He was only human...if you really had no problems with Him and what He said, you would agree that He was indeed God...since He said so. So in reality, you do have a problem with Jesus....right?

God bless
WhiteStar

I said I didn't want to debate about the atrocities in the Old Testament, as that isn't what really led to my doubts. That came later. For the purposes of this discussion, I don't want to go off into a tangeant. I can understand the view point that we cannot comprehend God fully and that we cannot judge him. That doesn't mean I agree with the behaviors (as depicted in the bible), but that's not the issue. God doesn't have to consult me. I know that.
I don't have problems with Jesus' sayings and mostly how he was depicted. There are a few strange things, but it could just be my lack of understanding of context. I don't even know if there is a God and if it's the same God as depicted in the bible, so I have a difficult time believing Jesus is God. That's different than saying I have a problem with Jesus. Refer to my "Lord, Lunatic, Liar" reference.

Boomygrrl

Boomygrrl · Dec 7, 2005

FireOfGod said:
You aren't doomed... There is hope, of course. There is no prayer that isn't "good" enough. Prayer is simply talking to God. The mere fact that you are talking about God as if he were real shows that you know He indeed does exist, but you just want to see Him manifest. You want the power, not just the talk, not just the theories, and not just the apologetics.

Ask him to show you, to touch you, and mess you up... in a good way, of course. He'll do it.

Thank you. I think God might exist, but I don't know. But you understand me completely when you said that "You want the power, not just the talk, not just the theory, and not just the apologetics." To me, the power doesn't mean personal power for me. But I guess the power in the belief, the power in the faith. Is it really true. Thank you for your suggestion.

Boomygrrl

whitestar · Dec 7, 2005

Boomygrrl said:
I said I didn't want to debate about the atrocities in the Old Testament, as that isn't what really led to my doubts. That came later. For the purposes of this discussion, I don't want to go off into a tangeant. I can understand the view point that we cannot comprehend God fully and that we cannot judge him. That doesn't mean I agree with the behaviors (as depicted in the bible), but that's not the issue. God doesn't have to consult me. I know that.
I don't have problems with Jesus' sayings and mostly how he was depicted. There are a few strange things, but it could just be my lack of understanding of context. I don't even know if there is a God and if it's the same God as depicted in the bible, so I have a difficult time believing Jesus is God. That's different than saying I have a problem with Jesus. Refer to my "Lord, Lunatic, Liar" reference.

Boomygrrl

Ok...I apparently misunderstood you...and I wasn't trying to debate, but putting things out there for you because of what you have said that I thought you meant had caused your doubts...you are being so vague, that I feel like I am guessing as to what you need to know...

Please understand I only want to help, but I don't understand what it is that you need more information on.

God bless
WhiteStar

Boomygrrl · Dec 7, 2005

Edial said:
Are you talking with one now?

"Been there done that" philosophy is often misleading in cases like these.
One can erroneosly conclude that one accomplished a certain task - so let's go on to the next task.

What happened when you spoke to that mature believer then?

In these times God chose to speak primarily through the Bible and through people. Why? I do not know that.

However, he also looks at the intent of a heart.

Maybe I misunderstood your intent.
Do you want to come back? Why?

You need to worship? To relate? Not to be alone?
Is it because your boyfriend is a Catholic? Your family?

The "Why?" is the intent.
Intent is what God looks at.

Often, one cannot explain why. Which is good, very good.

Good, good, very good.
Once one can establish your intent then (as much as you can remember) one can built on it.

But we do not even know what to ask God for forgiveness for.
For yelling at my parent? For stealing? For smacking my child? For cursing?

To ask for forgiveness for all this is good.
But the point is (and there are other technical points to it, such as preventing retribution from evil), that the sin is offensive to God.

I do not expect anyone to see that right off the bat, most of the Christians do not see that (in real life, in theory, yes). They just ask for forgiveness since they do not want retribution (what goes around, comes around).

Intent, intent of the heart.

Good, good.

I noticed that from your other posts at the Forums.

Forget the pride - only idiots are proud.

One really needs to be a "flounder" to be proud while crawling on all 4 on a planet that is spinning and racing aroung the Sun.

And when we do fall into the "idiot-mode" - God will break it.

Pride is the most common excuse.

When God is "silent", it is not pride.

Excellent statement. Excellent.
That is exactly the very reason God became man, so we see reality.
Our reality. (There are many other theological reasons besides this, of course).
But when God became flesh - this is reality.

You want what he provided. You and God are on the same wavelenght.

Good, good. You look for sense.

It is not convincing. It is convincing to Christians, but not to many non-Christians.
And many Christians do not realize that. They do not.

Apologetics' purpose it to "defend" the faith. Defend.

When, for example, the Atheists or Agnostics or people of specific religions state this or that is wrong - Apologetics is used to present that this and that is not wrong. It presents continuity, lack of contradictions, another "way of looking" on things. And by looking that way - contradictions are eliminated.

Many that question refuse to look at it "that way" - which is OK.

Apologetics is not meant to convince one of faith.

It is meant to present that there are NO contradictions once one looks through certain set of glasses.

Many Christians put too much faith in apologetics and theology - and it is their downfall and trap.

Apologetics and theology never saved, never clicked, never truly communicated, since true communication is a spiritual one that transcends all reason, all words.

That new communication uses words and reason, yet transcends it.

Many use apologetics to get faith - ridiculous. Apologetics is not made for that.

Since Apologetics confirms the faith of many Christians, they think that it will have the same effect on non-Christians.
They are mistaken. Sadly and gravely mistaken.

They are using the wrong key to open a heart.

One cannot get faith from anything else, but the gospel.

If one lied or embelished, it needs to be proven.
One is innocent UNTIL proven guilty.

Believe it or not, in 2000 years there was not found to be even one place that can be proven to be contradictory. Not one.

Do I present a challenge? NO.
The challenge was presented a long time ago by Jesus Christ and God Himself that the Bible is called Scriptures and all in it is inspired by Him.

Now, many can look at the Scriptures with their own "sets of glasses" and state that it is incorrect. But once one looks at it with the proper INTENT (here is that word again ), the great doors open, the mystery unravels, the eyes open, the book speaks, the great X (the symbol for treasure) is finally unearthed.

Good apologetics comes in when a the Treasure is defended. But when the attackers cannot see the treasure - this apologetics will not do, since they dig in the wrong place.

I was talking about good apologetics. Please understand, even in the sites that you mentioned (and many Christians use these sites) some of the apologetics are "dogs", based on the incorrect premise, arrogance, flippancy and self-righteousness - not the Scriptures (although they "quote" Scriptures).

You just echoed my words when I was an atheist.
With one exception (maybe it was left unsaid on your part), I actually, somehow liked the guy. I felt bad for his sufferings.
I could never understand why they were whipping that dude when I was listening to Jesus Christ Superstar, over and over and over and over again.

Thanks,
Ed

I am not talking to one now, but I do talk to several off and on. I don't have the "been there, done that" attitude by the way. I admit I'm getting tired of searching and searching and just getting further and further away. If I've given up, I wouldn't have started this thread.

When I was a Christian and even now (understanding Christianity), I see forgiveness as an act of love. Asking for forgiveness just to avoid having to face a consequence is selfish. I look at it as that you are in a relationship with God, close enough, that you can admit your wrongs and ask God to forgive you and help you, in order to better your life and behave better, and in order to preserve that closeness with God.
I asked for forgiveness when I said the prayer to become a Christian, and throughout my Christianity, I would ask for forgiveness out of remorse, because I knew I did wrong. Now, I don't ask Jesus for forgiveness, but sometimes I will pray to God and ask for forgiveness. Throughout this, I might've lost my religion, but I haven't completely severed ties with God. After all, if there really is a God, I wouldn't want to sever ties for one thing. If there isn't a God, well, the prayer can be seen as a meditation or as a reminder that I did wrong and I need to change my ways. Don't get me wrong, I don't always pray when I do wrong. But it crosses my mind from time to time and I will do so. Most of the time I just feel guilt or remorse and try to handle it on my own. That usually works out pretty well.

Thanks for the clarification about apologetics. I guess I do expect it to convert me back, and that's asking too much of it.

My intent...I mentioned it already. If there is a God, and if Christianity is true, I want to be a Christian. I'm not convinced right now. That's why I keep searching, asking, praying, reading, etc. I would like to know. Also, selfishly, it would be nice to be back in the Christian community. Like I said, most of my friends and all my family are Christian. It would be nice to feel more connected to them.

Boomygrrl

Boomygrrl · Dec 7, 2005

Martinez said:
Hey there Boomygirl,

Well let me start by saying that if God did indeed did doom people then you might be doomed.

but I'm glad to say that HE doesn't!

leave the theology alone for a while and look this up on your search engine,

Heavenly dog.

its by charles sagel?, He's really sarchastec (man I can't spell) I really dig his style.

when I was suffering with a case of the "oh oh I'm going to Hells" I found His site and was really blessed by it.

hope that helps God bless!

Thank you,

Boomygrrl

Boomygrrl · Dec 7, 2005

whitestar said:
Ok...I apparently misunderstood you...and I wasn't trying to debate, but putting things out there for you because of what you have said that I thought you meant had caused your doubts...you are being so vague, that I feel like I am guessing as to what you need to know...

Please understand I only want to help, but I don't understand what it is that you need more information on.

God bless
WhiteStar

Thank you. I feel like I've explained what I want...maybe I am being vague. I apologize. I guess I want to know that:
If Christianity is true, and if I don't believe in it now (even though I used to), am I going to hell? I really want to believe what is true. I'm not trying to be prideful. I want to believe in Christianity if it's true. If there is a God and the way to worship and have a relationship with him is through Jesus, why wouldn't I want that? Unfortunately, I don't believe it. I tried. I really have. You can doubt my efforts...anyone can. I know in my heart of hearts that I have tried. So, will God take that into consideration, or am I doomed? The prayer I mentioned in the OP is sincere. It really is. I just don't know what more I can do at this point of my life. I feel like giving up. I keep running circles and circles and getting nowhere. I keep bumping my head against a brick wall. All those analogies really do apply to me here. I want to give up sometimes, but I always go back. Why? Maybe it's the Holy Spirit leading me, maybe it's my obsession-compulsion. I just want to know, but the more I try to know, the more doubtful I become.
I've been on this forum for a long time...maybe over a year? I can't remember when I joined. I don't see it helping me...and yet I keep coming on. I have temporarily given up on church, but I still talk to Christians about this. I have started threads/discussions on this forum to help me understand. I feel myself doubting even more and more. I guess this discussion is in the spirit of: hey, I may never get the answers, I may never get to the point that any of this makes any rational sense to me (whether it's my limited brain or it really isn't rational is besides the point), and if that's the case, will God take that into consideration?

Boomygrrl

Edial · Dec 8, 2005

Boomygrrl said:
I am not talking to one now, but I do talk to several off and on.

Off and on is not good. Because the "off" switch is just too easy to use.
There must be continuity.

Boomygrrl said:
I don't have the "been there, done that" attitude by the way. I admit I'm getting tired of searching and searching and just getting further and further away. If I've given up, I wouldn't have started this thread.

You do not have it in the context of "giving up" on Christianity.

But you do show the symptoms of it when saying that you did this and that already and it did not work.
You appear to be looking for information, for answers.

While it is the repentance that is needed. There is a spiritual "block".

Boomygrrl said:
When I was a Christian and even now (understanding Christianity), I see forgiveness as an act of love. Asking for forgiveness just to avoid having to face a consequence is selfish. I look at it as that you are in a relationship with God, close enough, that you can admit your wrongs and ask God to forgive you and help you, in order to better your life and behave better, and in order to preserve that closeness with God.
I asked for forgiveness when I said the prayer to become a Christian, and throughout my Christianity, I would ask for forgiveness out of remorse, because I knew I did wrong. Now, I don't ask Jesus for forgiveness, but sometimes I will pray to God and ask for forgiveness. Throughout this, I might've lost my religion, but I haven't completely severed ties with God. After all, if there really is a God, I wouldn't want to sever ties for one thing. If there isn't a God, well, the prayer can be seen as a meditation or as a reminder that I did wrong and I need to change my ways. Don't get me wrong, I don't always pray when I do wrong. But it crosses my mind from time to time and I will do so. Most of the time I just feel guilt or remorse and try to handle it on my own. That usually works out pretty well..

What do you think is a difference between asking for forgiveness and repentance?

Boomygrrl said:
Thanks for the clarification about apologetics. I guess I do expect it to convert me back, and that's asking too much of it.

The only approach that I know of is repentance.

Boomygrrl said:
My intent...I mentioned it already. If there is a God, and if Christianity is true, I want to be a Christian. I'm not convinced right now. That's why I keep searching, asking, praying, reading, etc. I would like to know. Also, selfishly, it would be nice to be back in the Christian community. Like I said, most of my friends and all my family are Christian. It would be nice to feel more connected to them.

Sounds good to me.
But what do I know.

Please respond to the repentance question.

Thanks,
Ed

Boomygrrl · Dec 8, 2005

Edial said:
Off and on is not good. Because the "off" switch is just too easy to use.
There must be continuity.

You do not have it in the context of "giving up" on Christianity.

But you do show the symptoms of it when saying that you did this and that already and it did not work.
You appear to be looking for information, for answers.

While it is the repentance that is needed. There is a spiritual "block".

What do you think is a difference between asking for forgiveness and repentance?

The only approach that I know of is repentance.

Sounds good to me.
But what do I know.

Please respond to the repentance question.

Thanks,
Ed

17 to 18 years of searching, trying to find answers by asking people, praying, reading is hardly giving up. I cannot constantly talk to people. Guess what? As obsessive compulsive as I am, I even have a stopping point sometime. I do like to go out with friends and talk about superficial stuff as well. I do like to go to the movies. I do like to have fun, work, relax at home to tv, go on the internet, participate in this forum, play with my dog, etc. In other words, I have a life, sir. I have been searching, so please don't belittle it and act like I'm not doing a good enough job. Most people would've given up long time ago or not even give it much thought to begin with!
So, if not talking to someone right now is not good enough, then so be it. I'm talking to you guys, so obviously I'm not giving up.

Repentance is forgiveness plus turning away from your sin or wrongdoings. Asking God for forgiveness is not a bad thing, so I'm not sure why I have to defend myself. I'm agnostic, so the fact that I do ask sometimes, the fact that I want to have faith sometimes, I thought was a good thing. I'm tired of defending myself here.

Please respond to the OP. Do you think God is more understanding than you? I surely hope so.

Boomygrrl

Edial · Dec 8, 2005

Boomygrrl said:
17 to 18 years of searching, trying to find answers by asking people, praying, reading is hardly giving up. I cannot constantly talk to people.
Guess what? As obsessive compulsive as I am, I even have a stopping point sometime. I do like to go out with friends and talk about superficial stuff as well. I do like to go to the movies. I do like to have fun, work, relax at home to tv, go on the internet, participate in this forum, play with my dog, etc. In other words, I have a life, sir. I have been searching, so please don't belittle it and act like I'm not doing a good enough job. Most people would've given up long time ago or not even give it much thought to begin with!
So, if not talking to someone right now is not good enough, then so be it. I'm talking to you guys, so obviously I'm not giving up.

If you'll re-read my posts you would see that there was no belittling of anything what you have done.

However, I can see how it could have been perceived once one looks at it from another angle.
I cannot foresee every angle that one can look at things.

So, let me state my intent, so we're both clear on that.
My intent is to present to you a way to come back to God. If you want to, that is.

And "yes", I do not agree with an off and on approach. It is not belittling, but disagreeing.

I also presented that repentance is the ONLY way how.

Boomygrrl said:
Repentance is forgiveness plus turning away from your sin or wrongdoings. Asking God for forgiveness is not a bad thing, so I'm not sure why I have to defend myself. I'm agnostic, so the fact that I do ask sometimes, the fact that I want to have faith sometimes, I thought was a good thing. I'm tired of defending myself here.

Good definition. But it is a "theoretical" one.
In order for one to repent, one needs to know what one's sins are.
And one cannot know when he takes constructive criticism as destructive.

One of the biggest "enemies" of repentance is being defensive. It is a knee-jerk reaction. Constructive criticism is seen as an attack, belittling.
And defensiveness plays the off and on switch at will.

One cannot repent unless he gives up.

Boomygrrl said:
Please respond to the OP.

OK. I do not think you are doomed.

Boomygrrl said:
Do you think God is more understanding than you? I surely hope so..

He is more understanding.
But according to you he is silent, I am not.

Thanks,
Ed

DIANAC · Dec 8, 2005

Boomygrrl, I am wondering what appologetics did you read. If you remember the specifics of the author's writing that made an impact on you.
Take care
Diana

Hello, again.
I suppose my post "got lost". I am wondering if you remember the writings that made you doubt existence of God.

If I follow my brain, as I now perceive things to be, then I cannot believe/follow you.

What does your intelligence tell you?
What is this cognitive dissonance that you are talking about.
Be well,
Diana

Boomygrrl · Dec 8, 2005

DIANAC said:
Hello, again.
I suppose my post "got lost". I am wondering if you remember the writings that made you doubt existence of God.
What does your intelligence tell you?
What is this cognitive dissonance that you are talking about.
Be well,
Diana

I thought I answered that one; not directly your post but another one who had also asked. Josh McDowell, CS Lewis, Lee Strobel. I've also read apologetic websites, but don't remember them now.

Well, the thing was I used to have faith that Christianity was true. Once issues were brought up in McDowell's book (as that was the one that I read while still a Christian), I started thinking, "hey, you didn't answer that....and hey, I never considered that before. The non-christian argument has some good points, and it didn't get addressed sufficiently." So, I researched it more, and that led to more things to doubt about. I would've been better off, from a Christian's point of view, if I hadn't read this stuff to begin with. If I would've just gone on faith, I probably would've just continued believing.

To be honest, I don't remember the arguments right now.

CS Lewis and Strobel were better written than McDowell, but still left me with more questions than answers.

My intelligence tells me that Christianity was man-made, not God-made. My brain is leading me away from Christianity. I'm sorry to say.

I guess I was wondering that, if Christianity is true and I'm sadly mistaken, will God take all this into consideration? Will God judge me harshly and send me to Hell, just because I don't believe anymore? I believe I have good reasons for not believing, even if they turn out to be wrong...I seriously don't see it that way. I'm not turning away to pursue a sinful lifestyle or to thumb my nose to God. I turned away because I just don't believe anymore. I can't force myself to believe something that doesn't ring true to me anymore.

Boomygrrl

lilangel04_86 · Dec 8, 2005

The Bible says you have to believe with a child like faith. Another words a young child who has never been told there is no Santa Clause will believe with out a doubt that there is S.C. It is the same with us, except we've been told so many lies and half truths no one knows the truth anymore. This has us confused with what to believe. Yes it is hard to believe with so many ppl telling you everything else.

Am I doomed?

sine ira et studio

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