Am I cynical to not expect to find a virgin?

[horuhe00]

I understand where waterbear comes from because I kinda think like that too. Of course, I also rmind myself that that's what I want and may not be what God wants for me. So I'm hoping for a virgin, but know she might not be.

 

[waterbear]

Who's everyone? I posted in this thread and didn't say that. In fact, I'll go so far as to say the opposite - virgins (male and female both) are not rare at all. There's lots of us out there.

OK, everyone who made some explicit reference to the frequency of virgins thus far in the thread prior to me adding my first post

As a percent of the population, supposidly 50% of 18 yr olds are virgins, but I've noticed that % drops off sharply during college. I doubt, amongst all "young" 18+ singles, that the % virgin is over 10%, probably much lower.

 

[waterbear]

You say that now, but what if God should send you a wonderful, beautiful woman who's compatible with you in every way (except that) and who you love completely, but who admits to you she's only a born-again virgin? What then?

But I wouldn't love her that way then I'm very much an extremist on this issue; I would divorce someone whom I found out was not a virgin when we originally started dating - and I don't believe in remarriage.

 

[Cordelia]

But I wouldn't love her that way then I'm very much an extremist on this issue; I would divorce someone whom I found out was not a virgin when we originally started dating - and I don't believe in remarriage.

Hmm. Well, you're in for an interesting life.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

First, a disclaimer: I have a pet peeve about applying the word "virgin" to males. The concept of virginity has, for most of its history, been a purely technical concept concerning whether or not a woman had been penetrated, not a philosophical concept about whether one had engaged in any erotic activity. It certainly doesn't make sense to apply it to men in that regard, and in general I think it would be clearer to speak of people having done sexual acts with others vs. not having done so, rather than as virgins vs. non-virgins.

That said, just a question for anyone who says they insist on a virgin: how do you know the people you date are virgins? Ladies, do you ask them as soon as they ask you out, then turn them down if they say "no"? Guys, do you ask them before you ask them out, then say "never mind" if they say "no"? I can just imagine how that would go, grilling some poor person who's already suffering the embarassment of asking you out, or being asked out, about their former sex life. Or do you ask them after you've been dating for a while, then dump them if they say "no"? That hardly seems charitable.

 

[fishstix]

OK, everyone who made some explicit reference to the frequency of virgins thus far in the thread prior to me adding my first post

As a percent of the population, supposidly 50% of 18 yr olds are virgins, but I've noticed that % drops off sharply during college. I doubt, amongst all "young" 18+ singles, that the % virgin is over 10%, probably much lower.

Perhaps among the general population. But among never married young Christians I would suspect that the % virgin is higher than that.

First, a disclaimer: I have a pet peeve about applying the word "virgin" to males. The concept of virginity has, for most of its history, been a purely technical concept concerning whether or not a woman had been penetrated, not a philosophical concept about whether one had engaged in any erotic activity. It certainly doesn't make sense to apply it to men in that regard, and in general I think it would be clearer to speak of people having done sexual acts with others vs. not having done so, rather than as virgins vs. non-virgins.

I think that it makes perfect sense to apply the term virgin to males as well as females. Virgin, like many other words in the English language, can have a number of meanings. And it is perfectly acceptable to use it to mean "a person who has never had sex". Even if you want to restrict that to penetrative sex, it still takes two people for that so how would it make sense for only one of them to be saddled with the virgin to non-virgin status? Someone has to do the penetrating in order for the other to be penetrated.

That said, just a question for anyone who says they insist on a virgin: how do you know the people you date are virgins? Ladies, do you ask them as soon as they ask you out, then turn them down if they say "no"? Guys, do you ask them before you ask them out, then say "never mind" if they say "no"? I can just imagine how that would go, grilling some poor person who's already suffering the embarassment of asking you out, or being asked out, about their former sex life. Or do you ask them after you've been dating for a while, then dump them if they say "no"? That hardly seems charitable.

I would never go out with someone who I didn't already have a close friendship with. The topic of what one's perception of appropriate sexual boundaries is does tend to come up after a while of close friendship, and if it hadn't it would probably come up in the discussion leading up to deciding whether or not to move past close friendship into a romantic relationship. That would be a perfect time to bring up the subject of virginity. And volunteering the information about oneself at that point would be a good way of asking about the other person without completely putting them on the spot. I actually know whether or not a whole lot of my friends (of both genders) are virgins because the subject has just naturally come up in conversation.

I would also never get into a romantic relationship with someone without setting boundaries, and that would also be a good time to find out about past relationships. I think that it's very important to know your potential partner's sexual past not just because you may have a preference for a virgin but also because of the risk of disease and emotional baggage that could eventually come up. And I think that it's better not to move into a serious relationship at all than to have to break up later on if it is an issue, thus my opinion that the discussion on sexual past should come at the start of the romantic relationship.

 

[waterbear]

First, a disclaimer: I have a pet peeve about applying the word "virgin" to males. The concept of virginity has, for most of its history, been a purely technical concept concerning whether or not a woman had been penetrated, not a philosophical concept about whether one had engaged in any erotic activity. It certainly doesn't make sense to apply it to men in that regard, and in general I think it would be clearer to speak of people having done sexual acts with others vs. not having done so, rather than as virgins vs. non-virgins.

But it's so much eaiser to say virgin/non-virgin...

That said, just a question for anyone who says they insist on a virgin: how do you know the people you date are virgins? Ladies, do you ask them as soon as they ask you out, then turn them down if they say "no"? Guys, do you ask them before you ask them out, then say "never mind" if they say "no"? I can just imagine how that would go, grilling some poor person who's already suffering the embarassment of asking you out, or being asked out, about their former sex life. Or do you ask them after you've been dating for a while, then dump them if they say "no"? That hardly seems charitable.

I get the answer one way or another before I ask them out. It doesn't need to be too intrusive; usually I bring up that I only date virgins (indirectly typically) and see how she responds to it rather than question her.

 

[Sketcher]

That said, just a question for anyone who says they insist on a virgin: how do you know the people you date are virgins? Ladies, do you ask them as soon as they ask you out, then turn them down if they say "no"? Guys, do you ask them before you ask them out, then say "never mind" if they say "no"? I can just imagine how that would go, grilling some poor person who's already suffering the embarassment of asking you out, or being asked out, about their former sex life. Or do you ask them after you've been dating for a while, then dump them if they say "no"? That hardly seems charitable.

I plan on building a decent friendship first, knowing her testimony and all. A lot of that stuff comes out with the testimony.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

Well, I can't believe there are so many Christians who would reject from consideration anyone who hasn't been a Christian all their life. That's what you're saying, isn't it? If they didn't grow up in a Christian household, accepted the world's standards of sexual morality, had sex with a boyfriend or girlfriend a few times as teenagers, but then became Christians and now have a very powerful testimony and strong witness and have been doing all sorts of wonderful acts of Christian service for years, they're not qualified to date you?

Frankly, I'd rather marry a girl like that than one who's a virgin simply because she's been kept under lock and key by her father her whole life.

 

[waterbear]

Well, I can't believe there are so many Christians who would reject from consideration anyone who hasn't been a Christian all their life. That's what you're saying, isn't it?

Nope. My approach to virginity began when I decided that a virgin spouse would be at least as good as a non-virgin spouse for intimacy reasons, and virginity is one of the handful of immutable qualities a person has (a non-virgin cannot become a virgin). Since then I've come to decide that, for me, the reasons why adultry are wrong apply equally for consensual sex with anyone else other than the future spouse. These conclusions were all reached when I was an atheist.

 

[Im_A]

hey guys. sorry i haven't checked on here for awhile.

i just want to clear one thing up here. when i started this thread, i think a misunderstanding came up, and i put myself to blame on that.

i am not complaining about my "cynicism" towards the probability of not finding a virgin. i really could careless in all reality. fact is, when someone becomes a Christian, and they are trying their best in their faith, their past is as good as dead to God, so for me, i will look at it that way. we are all human, and some people have lived, wild if you will, but Christ has cleaned our sins, and changed us, and that's the key issue, is change and renewal. trust me, i've only dated 2 virgins my whole life, out of all the girls i tried to date. one back in highschool, and one around 2 years ago i believe. my last g/f and i broke up around 8 months and she wasn't, so when you look at mere numbers for my attempts in love, it is non-virgin over virgin. so i am sorry if i gave off the impression that i am complaining about it, i am not complaining about it, i was just throwing a curious thought i had in my head, sorry for any confusion i may have started. *smiles*

so i am confused about the new topic that kind of formed out of this. i read the last couple of posts. something about, not dating someone hasn't been a Christian all their life, mixed with addressing virginity and sex-related topics.

i know with me, i make no agenda of asking that. i am not going to show myself as really needing to know of her sexual past. love at first sight is false to me, so i know that just because i can sit down and have a cup of tea with a girl and agree with things, that doesn't mean she is my soulmate, or that sex is going to be an issue. i can talk about sex just fine, but until she is open to tell me, is how i deal with. i can be friends with a girl who has had a liberal sexual past, and i find that out later, trust me, i have had very, very close friendships with girls that have had a rather liberal past, and they were only friendships. friends first, and then when there is something more going on, i'll deal with it then. no need to jumping the gun. i think it is rather pointless to make up all these rules of how to address dates. all it seems is some idealistic plan out of book, and your not acting like yourself. i just want to be me, talk about whatever, and if sex comes in the topic, i'll talk about it, but i just want to have a good, enjoyable time if i am out on a "date". and if there is a need to continue the dates, more will be known about each other, and just let the process follow through instead of having all these expectations.

as the definition of virginity, i think that is a touchy issue. so many people have their own definition. i think if the strictest definition is applied to simple arousal, then no one is a virgin. or is it sexual intercourse alone, or sexual things, so does french kissing, or giving a hickey constitute as losing one's virginity? i mean with this topic, specific details are the important factors of trying to make up some definition. what about people that struggle with masturbation? the definition can theoreticallky tie into any area, that's why i think it is pointless to try to pinpoint all the specific areas as the point of no return or quo say. i will always believe sexual intercourse is point of no return. some people would also say that makes people feel better about certain other sexual things, and for me, i am not proud of my virginity, so i really don't care to make myself feel better that i haven't done this or i have done that, i just dont' care. and to give justice to other sexual activity, it doesn't by any means. weakness is weakness, and if through certain physical activities purity is lost, purity goes beyond virginity. the only reason why i am a virgin is because God convinced me of the reason why He put it in the Bible, and this world has given me good enough reason to remain temporary celibate. if it wasn't for God i would be a nymphomaniac, that is the sad fact of my humanity, and that is why I am so happy God has remained all this time throughout my life, and when i truly accepted Him at 12, He has remained through nonsense, to keep one thing in tact.

that's just my personal views and a little more history of my virginity i guess. God Bless you all! <><

 

[Im_A]

oh, one more thing i wanted to comment on. something about the topic of wanting to find a Christian girl who has been a Christian all of her life. i see the point, but then i don't. just because your a Christian, that doesn't mean you have been kept under a rock all your life. you want to know someone, get to know me a little bit better. that's why i don't care how long they have been a Christian in all reality. as long as we can relate spiritually, is what i look for in the area of spirituality/religion. but that's me, and that may not be for everone, and that is cool. *smiles* God Bless you all! <><

 

[InigoMontoya]

Well I don't, right now atleast, to read through all of the posts after the first page.

I'll just say this:

Seems trivial. Are any of us virgins in God's eye? Have you never embaced a thought of lust for more than a moment before rejecting it? If embracing the thought of lust towards another, is adultery in Gods eyes... Can one who's committed adultery really be a virgin?

We might justify it by saying we're not adulters because we're under Grace and Forgiveness from God. We might say there's a "difference" to us (not God though) between embracing sin in thought and carrying it out.

Oh well, would go further, and possible refute my own thoughts but ... alas, lack of time.

 

[Living4Him03]

It's not really trivial. It's a very different issue going into your wedding night knowing the person you are marrying didn't save anything and you saved everything, versus going into your wedding night knowing both of you saved yourselves. They slept with someone else, therefore they are tied to that person forever in a way. Although they've been forgiven, the consequences of sin are still there, especially with regard to emotional scars it leaves. If my future hubby has had intercourse before he marries me, sure I can forgive him and the marriage will survive through that mistake as well as probably many others, but it would be really difficult to just "get over it". I would be jealous of that other woman honestly and would probably wonder if he will compare me to her. Such a deeply, deeply intimate bond is not something you just toss aside. I think part of becoming one flesh is in making love. It's something that unites the two people in a way that is not possible in any other way. It definitely can be forgiven, but it's not easy and is not something that you can just forget about instantly.

 

[fishstix]

Well, I can't believe there are so many Christians who would reject from consideration anyone who hasn't been a Christian all their life. That's what you're saying, isn't it? If they didn't grow up in a Christian household, accepted the world's standards of sexual morality, had sex with a boyfriend or girlfriend a few times as teenagers, but then became Christians and now have a very powerful testimony and strong witness and have been doing all sorts of wonderful acts of Christian service for years, they're not qualified to date you?

Frankly, I'd rather marry a girl like that than one who's a virgin simply because she's been kept under lock and key by her father her whole life.

First, you're assuming that only someone who has been a Christian from childhood would keep their virginity. That's incorrect. Many people keep their virginity till marriage even if they only become Christians later in life. And many non-Christians keep their virginity until marriage even if they didn't ever become Christians.

Second, you're assuming that the only reason someone would keep their virginity is because his/her parents force him/her to. That is also incorrect. Many people remain virgins by choice. In fact, I would guess that most adult virgins are virgins by choice rather than just because their parents forced them to be. Parental influence can only take people so far - eventually we all start making our own decisions, usually before we hit 20. And for many people one of those decisions is to remain a virgin until marriage.

 

[invisiblebabe]

*shrug* 20 and never kissed here... plus I know *counts* 12 others who are the same way, all 16 or over, all but one 19 or over. Besides that, I know so many more virgins that I doubt I can count 'em all, haha. So yes, you 're being cynical.

I think it's just fine if you desire a spouse who is a virgin. Personally, I could not emotionally handle the fact that my husband has known other girls intimately besides myself.... not to mention extreme problems relating to one another on this issue due to our differences. Virginity means a lot to me in a future spouse, and I trust God on this one that He will provide a man for me who, by His grace, has kept himself.

 

[invisiblebabe]

Well I don't, right now atleast, to read through all of the posts after the first page.

I'll just say this:

Seems trivial. Are any of us virgins in God's eye? Have you never embaced a thought of lust for more than a moment before rejecting it? If embracing the thought of lust towards another, is adultery in Gods eyes... Can one who's committed adultery really be a virgin?

We might justify it by saying we're not adulters because we're under Grace and Forgiveness from God. We might say there's a "difference" to us (not God though) between embracing sin in thought and carrying it out.

Oh well, would go further, and possible refute my own thoughts but ... alas, lack of time.

Of course none of us are perfect or sinless in God's eyes (except through the blood of Christ). I question your opinion of virginity being trivial, though. Surely God finds it important, or He would not have commanded it before marriage.

Physically, of course one can still be a virgin if he has lusted. Jesus says this to remind us that not one is righteous, that God's standard of holiness is so high that nobody but Christ can go over the bar. I do not intend this to mean that He implies virginity is anything more than having not physically had sex.

Lusting with the eyes IS a sin; don't get me wrong. I am just suggesting that physically acting on that sin has far worse consequences than merely sinning in one's mind. Sinful thoughts are wretched and evil in God's eyes.... strive for purity in heart, all!!

However, lusting over someone does not create anywhere near the shared experience nor intimate ties that actually sleeping with a person does.

Something to think about: If I daydream about being an Olympic champion, is that the same as me actually winning the medal?

 

[Greyshade89]

It is a hard task to find a girlfriend/boyfriend that has never had sex before, but I think that if you keep living for God..He will see you want a girl who hasnt done anything..and I think He will bless you with a girl like that. All things are possible through Christ who strengthens us.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

First, you're assuming that only someone who has been a Christian from childhood would keep their virginity. That's incorrect. Many people keep their virginity till marriage even if they only become Christians later in life. And many non-Christians keep their virginity until marriage even if they didn't ever become Christians.

I know, but given that people raised as Christians are much more likely to abstain from premarital sex than those who were not, I think an I-only-date-virgins policy can be viewed as a de facto I-only-date-people-from-Christian-families policy.

And to those who are so sure that God is going to "bless" them with a virgin, as though someone who screwed up once 15 years ago can't be a blessnig as a spouse, He may surprise you. His ways are higher than our ways.

 

[invisiblebabe]

I know, but given that people raised as Christians are much more likely to abstain from premarital sex than those who were not, I think an I-only-date-virgins policy can be viewed as a de facto I-only-date-people-from-Christian-families policy.

Not necessarily. My entire family is not all Christian (siblings aren't, and some people are questionable). I also know enough people who were so busy with academics growing up that they had no time to date, whether they were Christians or not.

And how about, say, a girl raised Hindu that becomes a Christian later in life...she is likely to be a virgin.... Christianity is not the only religion that promotes virginity... and on the other end of things, I do know girls from strong Christian families that ended up pregnant as teens. Therefore, Christianity and virginity are not at all synonymous. Yes, there is a correlation, but I would wager to say that the correlation is not nearly as high as you may assume.

Hmmm and if I recall properly, I have seen the stats on this (i'm a sociology major ) and the number of people who remain virgins really doesn't change all that drastically, when you divide it up into Christian and non-Christian.

And to those who are so sure that God is going to "bless" them with a virgin, as though someone who screwed up once 15 years ago can't be a blessnig as a spouse, He may surprise you. His ways are higher than our ways.

I think God knows what we can and can't emotionally handle, and how important virginity would be to us in this aspect, and what it would take for us to be able to relate to someone romantically... for some, virginity is a legitimate thing to ask God for and expect Him to provide.

And I do hate to say it, but past sins have consequences. It's a person's choice whether he wants to deal with someone else's consequences of that particular past sin.... and God isn't going to hold it against someone if that person says, "No, I do not want to and am not able to deal with the fact that this person has had sex before and I have waited."

For me it is not about God "blessing" me with a virgin..... for me it is a legitimate qualitiy I need in a man. Blessings are extras; needs are always provided by Him.

And finally, God cannot make you marry someone. He gave us brains for us to help us decide what qualities we want in a spouse... and frankly, there is much more to compatibility than only sharing a passion for Christ. Passion for Him is the biggest thing to look for, yes... BUT... it's not the only thing...it's simply not that easy.