Am I (becoming) Calvinist?

twin1954 · Oct 8, 2016

God promised Abraham, who is our spiritual father, a seed as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand of the sea, an innumerable company that will fill Heaven. They have never been the majority in any generation but Heave will be full and the elect will number more than can be counted.

(Gen 22:15) And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

(Gen 22:16) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

(Gen 22:17) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

stenerson · Oct 8, 2016

I'm not too dogmatic on my eschatology, because as I said, I'm not so sure of my position now.
I'm falling on the side of a long period where salvation will become the norm, yet before the eternal state. In which case that age might tilt the balance of total saved in human history to the majority. Pre-mills believe Christ will be ruling literally on an Earthly throne, post-mills believe Christ will be ruling from Heaven and subduing the nations to Christianity via The Spirit, The Gospel and His Church.

sdowney717 · Oct 9, 2016

stenerson said:
I'm not too dogmatic on my eschatology, because as I said, I'm not so sure of my position now.
I'm falling on the side of a long period where salvation will become the norm, yet before the eternal state. In which case that age might tilt the balance of total saved in human history to the majority. Pre-mills believe Christ will be ruling literally on an Earthly throne, post-mills believe Christ will be ruling from Heaven and subduing the nations to Christianity via The Spirit, The Gospel and His Church.

Isaiah 2 teaches that the Lord will reign from Jerusalem in the latter days, judging between the nations and rebuking many people and all nations shall flow into the Lord's house. These scriptures are all still future.

Isaiah 2New King James Version (NKJV)
The Future House of God
2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

There is a linking of Rev 5 with Rev 20 regarding reigning with Him on the earth 1000 years.
In saying we will reign on the earth, which in Rev 20 gives more detail as in reign with Him for a thousand years.
9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This too about His returning.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

stenerson · Oct 9, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Isaiah 2 teaches that the Lord will reign from Jerusalem in the latter days, judging between the nations and rebuking many people and all nations shall flow into the Lord's house. These scriptures are all still future.

Exactly ! I'm speaking about possibly yet future events where masses, most, the nations etc. will for the most part seek the Lord. And this will supposedly last a good, long time before the eternal state. I'm not saying that most people today, or since Christ 1st coming are redeemed.

sdowney717 · Oct 9, 2016

stenerson said:
Exactly ! I'm speaking about possibly yet future events where masses, most, the nations etc. will for the most part seek the Lord. And this will supposedly last a good, long time before the eternal state. I'm not saying that most people today, or since Christ 1st coming are redeemed.

I hope all can see futurism is true according to the scriptures, and also pre millennialism.

stenerson · Oct 10, 2016

sdowney717 said:
I hope all can see futurism is true according to the scriptures, and also pre millennialism.

There a wide variety of takes on it. Many see much of Mathew 24 for example as being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and Old Covenant Judaism.

sdowney717 · Oct 10, 2016

stenerson said:
There a wide variety of takes on it. Many see much of Mathew 24 for example as being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and Old Covenant Judaism.

Christ's answer to them was in response to their question about his second coming.
“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The end of the age is identified with the second coming, not Jerusalem overrun by Rome.
Preterists are heretics, the full preterists think He already came back.

JM · Oct 10, 2016

The problem with futurism...everything is future. It can never happen. Ever.

sdowney717 · Oct 10, 2016

JM said:
The problem with futurism...everything is future. It can never happen. Ever.

http://alwaysbeready.com/preterism-refuted

I tried to convince the church's youth pastor, who no longer is one, that we are not living in the 'New heavens and New earth' that Peter writes about. He though remained certain we were and said would continue to teach the kids according to his beliefs. He was a full preterist agreeing with these points discussed in that link, although refused to acknowledge he was one. I only found out when my daughter came home and somehow these various doctrines came up that she believed.
One of his arguments was the church was a failure since people were just waiting for the 'antichrist' to show up. He taught Nero was 'the antichrist.' and Book of Revelation was all in the past. He did not like the idea of teaching about a coming worldwide tribulation which scared kids, and I suppose him too.

JM · Oct 10, 2016

I believe Preterism is just as wrong as Futurism. Both systems were created after the Reformation by Jesuits.

What is Futurism? What is Historicism?

stenerson · Oct 10, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Christ's answer to them was in response to their question about his second coming.
“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The end of the age is identified with the second coming, not Jerusalem overrun by Rome.
Preterists are heretics, the full preterists think He already came back.

I don't believe Preterists are heretics, just full preterists.

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

stenerson said:
I don't believe Preterists are heretics, just full preterists.

All preterists believe Christ already returned 'spiritually' and silently in AD 70, for proof they believe matthew 24 fulfilled over and out done with. The seeing Him coming on the clouds of Heaven, was when Christ in Heaven went to God and got all authority, none of that having to do with Christ's second coming to earth where every eye shall see him.
In the disciples asking Him

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

They all believe Christ has come back in AD 70. A full (consistent) preterist thinks there is no rapture and no bodily second coming of Christ among other weird things.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/CriticalArticles/2005_hindson_scoffers.html
This article pins all the points I dealt with at church back then with the youth pastor, the elders, and the pastor.

"5. Denies the Power of Christ. While most preterists would insist they are defending the power of Christ, they are actually denying it. They are trying to “bring in the Kingdom” without the King."

#5 was another major point of doctrine. The youth pastor taught that the church had to rule and reign over the entire earth before Christ would return, we had to win the kingdom without Him, converting the entire world. It is a teaching of world dominionism.
And he told these kids they would be rulers of cities before Christ came back.

JM · Oct 11, 2016

Matthew 24 has already taken place. You don't have to be a Preterist to believe that.

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

https://gotquestions.org/premillennialism.html

In reading this about the eternal kingdom of Christ, the author uses this from 2 Samuel 7

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also the Lord tells you that He will make you a house.

12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”’”

17 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

What is of striking interest that this is Christ's future kingdom is in v14.
14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.

Christ took our sins upon Himself becoming sin for us. And was struck by the blows of men and hung upon a cross.
So this can not be King Solomon.

2 Corinthians 5
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

JM said:
Matthew 24 has already taken place. You don't have to be a Preterist to believe that.

Matthew 24
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This above is the rapture also taught by Paul and these events are still future. Also this being gathered from one end of heaven to the other is referring to being gathered across the face of the entire earth under the heavens, as the wind would blow east, north, south, west, the four winds, the entire globe will they be gathered.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

Adding in the tares will also be gathered to be cast into hell at the end of the age.
We are not yet at the end of this age, we do not have new heavens or a new earth where righteousness dwells, Satan still roams about, anyone think Satan righteous?.
Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

The ones being taken in Matthew 24 are taken away to destruction, where the eagles are, they are birds of prey.
Luke 17 here and Matthew 24 are describing the same events.

Luke 17:36-37New King James Version (NKJV)
36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Matthew 24:28
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

JM · Oct 11, 2016

You can flood the forum with quotes and still not prove you case. Examine your presuppositions and ask yourself, what is the end of the age?

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

JM said:
You can flood the forum with quotes and still not prove you case. Examine your presuppositions and ask yourself, what is the end of the age?

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

The end of the age is the 'world to come of which we speak'.
Hebrews 2
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:

“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

In that we do not yet see all things put under Him, we are not in the world to come, it is still in the future. Satan still roams about, he has not been bound into a pit yet. This world is not yet full of righteousness.

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

Ask yourself when did the New Covenant start? If your thinking of the 'end of the age'.

In AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem? No, not then.

sdowney717 · Oct 11, 2016

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Simply that all those things Christ tells us about will happen in the generation of which He speaks, who will experience those things, so then this generation, not the current generation. These, they, them.

.https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3778&t=KJV
The KJV translates Strongs G3778 in the following manner: this (157x),these (59x), he (31x), the same (28x), this man (25x), she (12x), they (10x),miscellaneous (34x).

And to carry on, what about the verse following?
Matthew 24:34-35New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Heaven and earth have not yet passed away.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3928&t=KJV

The same greek word, Transliteration, parerchomai, is used by Christ here,

Mat 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, G3928 one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass G3928 from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And the law has not passed away, Paul said they upheld, established the law, the law is not voided or overthrown.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

ESV
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Am I (becoming) Calvinist?

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