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Well......no. I think they are misled. And I am sure that many of them love Jesus much more purely and better than I do.
Because the verses you quote have been mistranslated, for one. The Greek word "aionios" does not mean "eternal" That is a different word - adidios, used only twice in the Scriptures and both times referring specifically to God.
I am not denying God's word. If I were Greek speaking and were to read it in the original Greek, this is what I would come up with. Yet some people accuse me of being a horrible sinner to do such a thing.
BTW - there are a number of BAD translations of the Bible out there. The more I study, the more I see that the Bible has been interpreted by people with an agenda to defend, such as how the Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible interpreted the word "metanoia" to mean "do penance" when it means no such thing at all.
Nice response. As I mentioned earlier, I keep finding more and more information which shows that translators of the original Greek have been less than honest with their translations because they have an agenda to defend.
For instance, this nonsense from Vines
Death...is always, in Scripture, viewed as the penal consequence of sin..."
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, pg. 276)
Not in the East.
The Orthodox Church takes the position that penal substitution and the corresponding soteriology which accompanies it is in error.
Vines falls into the error of the West in thinking that God's dealings with us is according to the Roman Courtroom.
I tend to agree.Your "goodness" or "badness" comes from your standing in Jesus. He says that we are all lost until we make peace with Him.
Theological concepts like Hell or the Lake of Fire only become clear after we have gotten to know Him for a while.
In Matthew 23:33, Jesus brings up the word "gehenna" and tells those Jewish religious leaders they are heading there. My question is, could the gehenna in this verse be the same as the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation?
Discuss.............
Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it shows the rich man burning in a flame and calling out to Abraham, with Lazarus in his bosom.
[This "COVENANTLE" parable is actually my largest study of the Bible]
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).
The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.LUKE 16:24
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham[NC Faith/Life?]! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus[Resurrection]! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am[OC Law/Death?] tormented in this flame.' "
If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"?
The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe...................
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews
In Revelation, both a people and a great City are shown with smoke burning:
Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......
It seems those ones in Matthew 23:33 and Revelation 14:1 are also part of the great Harlot in Revelation 19:3
Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
............
To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.
To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.
No. You have the right not to believe so. However preach it is something else. Because an atheist may perceive it as "if so then why do I need Christ, He saves me from what".
The lake of fire does last forever, but human souls (unlike angels) will "perish" there, because there it seems likely that Christ's wording on this isn't a metaphor: "destroy both body and soul". And also the wording in Revelation: "second death". Again, a wording that does not sound like a metaphor.To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.
But, Hades (do people sometimes call this temporary place Hades "hell?") -- is that actually what Catholics call 'purgatory'? (asking, since I've just assumed so) -- that's not forever. It will after the Day of Judgement be thrown into the lake of fire we learn near the end of Revelation.To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.
Bad? No.To hear some folks talk, one would think that I am committing a terrible sin by not believing that hell lasts forever.
Bad? No.
Sinful? Debatable.
Inaccurate? Yes.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
I disagree. But parables or not, they sure don't convey a temporal punishment of any kind.Those are all parables, and not to be taken at face value.
If you think God is love, you must also think God is stern. He is equally both.I know God is love.
Apparently that concept evades you.
If I am told God is love, am I wrong to expect that He will act in love?
Kindly tell me how burning someone forever is love.
So, basically, all the Gospel and NT authors were misquoted in every instance? Yet, there are no verses showing anything temporal about hell. Oh well, I see this will go nowhere. But, thanks anyway.QUOTE="GraceBro,
Inaccurate? Yes.
Actually, that's what I continue to mull over. Am I reading the Scriptures correctly. You see, what you have posted is not what is in the Greek, according to some sources. Let's take a look:
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41)
Ummmmmmmmm.....no.
25:41τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων πορεύεσθε ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ οἱ κατηραμένοιεἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ (aionios - not the world for eternal)
From Young's Literal Translation of the NT:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, (aionios. Or could also be translated as "age-lasting") that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
“unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12) Where do you get the idea that the word "unquenchable" means the same thing as "eternal?"
“shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2),
Same thing here. The word which has been translated as "eternal" is "עוֹלָם" (owlam) which also carries the idea of an age or age-long.
a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49)
Again, where do you get the idea that this means "eternal?" You are reading into the text that which you have been told to believe. But more than that, where was the place where the fire burned without being quenched? It was the trash dump of Jerusalem, the Valley of Gehenom (Gehenna) where the trash and dead bodies were burned with a fire that continually burned.
But more than that, what is the context of Jesus speech here? What is He warning about. Go back a few verses and you will see that He is warning the Pharisees who were listening that if they harmed one of the disciples, the "little ones who believe in me," they would have a dire fate happen to them. This actually happened in AD 70 when the unbelieving Jews were trapped in the city of Jerusalem and over 1 million were killed. No doubt that a great multitude of them were simply thrown on the garbage dump of the city to burn with the other debris. No, this has nothing to do with an eternal hell. Remember, context has a lot to do with proper understanding of the Bible.
a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24)
This is a parable which is speaking of the Pharisees. Jesus often taught in parables. Matthew 21: 33-46 is a similar parable. Both of them are spoken against the Pharisees and the nation of Israel. The "rich man" is national Israel, clothed in the purple and fine linen of the priests. They are rich because they have a special relationship with God that the poor man - the Gentile nations of paganism - do not have.
“everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Again, understanding that Paul spoke often of the "soon coming" of the Lord, this appears to be about the destruction of Jerusalem. And again, the word there is "aionios" not adidios, which is Greek for eternal.
a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11)
Actually, in the Orthodox faith, we do not see places in the next life. There is one reality for all who are ever born - God. There is no separate place called hell, a place called Purgatory, or a place called heaven. There is God. God is the heaven for the believer who has repented. He is the Purgatory for those who need cleansing and change. And He is the hell for those who died without repenting.
and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
This is your worst problem. The verse reads, if you believe that aionios means "eternity" "tormented day and night from eternity to eternity" ( εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων) Why would there be more than one eternity?
These are the things I am pondering. Some claim that aionios can mean eternity and others say no. But more than that, what does punishment without end mean about the character of God, who is love? Is that consistent with love? I think not. It serves no purpose at all, instead of chastisement in fire that brings repentance and healing of the soul.
Universalism is a broad term that requires definition as there various perspectives within this view. Some do not believe in a literal, physical lake of fire. Others such as myself do. Based on this, an atheist would still need to repent and believe in the atoning blood of Jesus for forgiveness of sin, lest he/she end up in the LOF for an age of time. Being in the LOF for even a minute is not worth it, hence the need to repent in this life.No. You have the right not to believe so. However preach it is something else. Because an atheist may perceive it as "if so then why do I need Christ, He saves me from what".
Matt 25:46 does not state that hell/lake of fire lasts forever. Study the passage for yourself instead of just accepting what you were taught. The context is the sheep-goat judgment of the nations - not the great white throne judgment - 2 different events. The sheep are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom while the goats are commanded to depart into the lake of fire. Millennium = 1,000 years. Therefore since the sheep enter into the kingdom for 1,000 years, the goats likewise enter the lake of fire for the same age of time. In both cases "eternal" life is limited to 1,000 years and "eternal" punishment is likewise limited to 1,000 years.Well, your belief is not in keeping with the testimony of God's word which tells us that it does last forever. (Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 14:9-11) Who are you to deny God's word? Why should people let you publicly espouse a false belief unchallenged?
Bad? No.
Sinful? Debatable.
Inaccurate? Yes.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
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