always apologizing

[chaoschristian]

Actually, cc, there have been a few cases of a lot stronger than that -- but the mods have been great about cleaning it up. Kind of like removing graffitti from a wall so it doesn't encourage more. If you don't mind me asking - is there a mirror image problem over in the TE forum?

Yes, we have always had, since I've been here (oh, what a almost a whole year now?) a good set of mods in this forum.

We've had some problems in the TE forum, but the forum isn't as active as this one is either.

 

[chaoschristian]

Well, apparently there's a new animal called an OECer which is also a Creationist and so has a right to be here, but in my opinion, any idea that suggests the universe's age is in the millions or billions instead of thousands is a [oops you know what... I think that's against forum rules]. (There. I said it.)

I think you are misunderstanding the rules of the sub-forums.

The sub-forums are places for each respective 'camp' as the powers that be have divided the issue to talk AND debate amongst themselves. It's not just not for members from the other camp to get all persnickety in.

So, if you wanted to debate the merits of the OEC pov, you are free to do so in this subforum, just as I am free to debate the merits of the various TE positions in the TE sub-forum.

 

[FallingWaters]

The problem is that I am a YEC and I have to share this sub-forum with people who believe in OEC. While they think that I should embrace them with open arms because they believe the same Bible I do, I strenuously disagree.

Every time YECist open their mouth here, we have to be corrected by an OECist for mis-stating our opinion. Word games have always driven me insane.

 

[vossler]

We've had some problems in the TE forum, but the forum isn't as active as this one is either.

I read this and thought this was worthy of exploration. I decided to venture over to the TE subforum (Yes I made it back without any scars or lasting damage ) and check out how many YECs post there. From every active thread on the first page I found only 6 postings by YECs. 5 were clearly fellowship related and one could be questionable but nothing further developed from that post.

If you've had problems there I'm interested in seeing exactly what they are because from what I can see YECs rarely post there and when they do it is in fellowship.

 

[Floodnut]

Well, apparently there's a new animal called an OECer which is also a Creationist and so has a right to be here, but in my opinion, any idea that suggests the universe's age is in the millions or billions instead of thousands is a [oops you know what... I think that's against forum rules]. (There. I said it.)

Actually OEC as often as not is just a euphemism for TE. They call it creation but if it took millions of years and involves gradual change to the present state of affairs, how is not EVOLUTION, just because they chose to redefine the term "creation?"

 

[FallingWaters]

Actually OEC as often as not is just a euphemism for TE. They call it creation but if it took millions of years and involves gradual change to the present state of affairs, how is not EVOLUTION, just because they chose to redefine the term "creation?"

Really. Well, thanks for illuminating me. It seems to me if God had created a former world and inserted a gap of time in Genesis 1, I would think He would have included that in the explanation. "And God made a previous world, but it was a wreck, so He started over." "And THIS TIME it was good." That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Pats]

The problem is that I am a YEC and I have to share this sub-forum with people who believe in OEC. While they think that I should embrace them with open arms because they believe the same Bible I do, I strenuously disagree.

Every time YECist open their mouth here, we have to be corrected by an OECist for mis-stating our opinion. Word games have always driven me insane.

I'd like to point out that there are several different "camps" withing TE and Creationism and both only have their own subforums. However, if there is enough interest in a "YEC" sub forum, you can go here to suggest it to Erwin.

 

[Pats]

I read this and thought this was worthy of exploration. I decided to venture over to the TE subforum (Yes I made it back without any scars or lasting damage ) and check out how many YECs post there. From every active thread on the first page I found only 6 postings by YECs. 5 were clearly fellowship related and one could be questionable but nothing further developed from that post.

If you've had problems there I'm interested in seeing exactly what they are because from what I can see YECs rarely post there and when they do it is in fellowship.

I don't know about you, but I have seen the majority of the TE debate posts in the Creationist forum removed entirely, sometimes with a mod hat and some times not. There may not be "examples" left to find in the TE sub forum if they were moderated.

 

[Floodnut]

Really. Well, thanks for illuminating me. It seems to me if God had created a former world and inserted a gap of time in Genesis 1, I would think He would have included that in the explanation. "And God made a previous world, but it was a wreck, so He started over." "And THIS TIME it was good." That just doesn't make sense to me.

Agreed. No way can there be a gap between verse one and verse two, and no amount of grammatical gymnastics will allow the verb Hayah in verse two to be changed to mean "BECAME."
And Jesus was the second Adam, not the third or fourth. AND DEATH began with the sin of Adam. There was no death of animate life, no principle of death on the earth prior to the Fall. The gap theory postulates a long age of life and death on earth BEFORE the creation of Adam.

 

[mark kennedy]

When I was moderating I had proportionally more complaints of TEs on here then YECs in their subforum. I did have a couple of YECs going on their subforum starting trouble but not that many. The nice thing about TEs for the most part is they will stop when things get heated usually.

Personally, I never saw that much difference between YEC and OEC. It's the historical Adam and special creation of fully formed parent species that is front and center for me. The common ancestor mythology that is so popular these days is what I am opposed to, not earth age theories. If they can agree with me on that I am delighted to extend the right hand of fellowship and embrace them as like-minded believers. Most TEs on here that post to this forum are careful not to start debates and I appreciate their fellowship posts very much.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Brennan]

Well, i'm pretty clearly not YEC, so: I would simply point out that anyone who wants to find out your POV is naturally going to come and post a question here. Do many of you hang out on the OT threads much?

 

[FallingWaters]

I don't. There is far too much animosity for me. I don't need total strangers belittling me and making me feel like an idiot with their holier-than-thou I'm-smarter-than-you attitudes. Besides I will never believe the earth is old in a million years.

 

[laptoppop]

Hold on..... in a million years, wouldn't you be able to believe that the earth is 1,006,000 years or so old?

 

[Brennan]

@Fallingwaters

In my experience, taking part in a debate helps to give your position intellectual rigour. And no-one ever changes their mind from an entrenched position.

 

[FallingWaters]

Some people may enjoy debates, but I do not. I don't think anyone ever changes their mind in a debate. What I have witnessed so far is people coming on really strong with their own point of view, not really having a humble, teachable attitude. Such a discussion has no value for me.

 

[FallingWaters]

Hold on..... in a million years, wouldn't you be able to believe that the earth is 1,006,000 years or so old?

Yes, I would be able to believe that!

 

[FallingWaters]

@Fallingwaters

In my experience, taking part in a debate helps to give your position intellectual rigour. And no-one ever changes their mind from an entrenched position.

I guess I'm not that much of an intellectual. I don't have to know and understand every little detail. While I think I have above average intelligence, I know I am not expert enough in any particular field to be my own final judge of scientific concepts. I can't know everything.

I don't have "my own position" per se that I came up with all on my own with no outside influence. I surround myself with teachers who have a similar world-view to mine, and I trust their expertise in their particular field. My position is actually the position of the teachers I trust.

I don't require the kind of logic I see other people asking for all the time. I know no one has all the answers. Even if they did, I'm no rocket scientist to understand it all for myself. All that information turns my brain into mush.

 

[chaoschristian]

Some people may enjoy debates, but I do not. I don't think anyone ever changes their mind in a debate. What I have witnessed so far is people coming on really strong with their own point of view, not really having a humble, teachable attitude. Such a discussion has no value for me.

Referencing highlighted text.

In my short time on CF I've witnessed folks moving from TE to YEC and from YEC to TE.

Do I believe the debatesin OT were the cause? No, but I believe that they were a factor in the final outcome.

 

[FallingWaters]

Well, I'm glad it helps some people, but I am not one of the people it helps.

 

[laptoppop]

Well, i'm pretty clearly not YEC, so: I would simply point out that anyone who wants to find out your POV is naturally going to come and post a question here. Do many of you hang out on the OT threads much?

Yes, I go around the OT threads a bit. Sometimes the rhetoric gets tiring - just as its important for YECs to remember that TEs are not satanic, its important for TEs to remember that YECs can have a brain.

AFAIK, honest, open questions are fine in this sub-forum -- but "real" questions, where one is seeking to know or understand something they don't already know. Questions posed as an attempt to show a weakness in a position belong in the OT forum. For example "How long did it take to build the ark?" could have a nice thread in this subforum, discussing the scriptures, the size of the ark, the number of people working on it, different ways for it to come about, etc -- without challenging if there were an ark or a global flood.