Altruism

[Silent Bob]

In a convo with a guy about altruism he asked the philosophical question is there true altruism? His example: Even the good Christian who helps others is s/he doing it for others or is s/he doing it to go to heaven?

Even when no alterior motive is to be found (i.e. noone is around to admire us or there is no belief in heaven/hell) are we doing because we truelly want to or because when we are good to each other we feel better for ourselves? I know that when I sacrifice for others I feel better by thinking I am a good person. How about you?

 

[JesusWalks78]

In a convo with a guy about altruism he asked the philosophical question is there true altruism? His example: Even the good Christian who helps others is s/he doing it for others or is s/he doing it to go to heaven?

Even when no alterior motive is to be found (i.e. noone is around to admire us or there is no belief in heaven/hell) are we doing because we truelly want to or because when we are good to each other we feel better for ourselves? I know that when I sacrifice for others I feel better by thinking I am a good person. How about you?

Personally if a person has a reason to do something it isnt completely selfless....I would go as far as to say that apart from Jesus there is no such thing as a selfless act.

 

[Robinsegg]

Well, I'm not of the camp that says good deeds can get you into Heaven (though they are can be indicative of the relationship needed to do so).
I'd say that selflessness is a characteristic unique to Christ on this Earth. However, we can attempt to emulate that characteristic to become more like Him and please Him more (and perhaps draw others to Him).

Rachel

 

[kopilo]

If I'm helping someone it's because I want or need to help that person, I don't care if it will get me closer to or further from heaven. Sometimes I just feel a real need to help others, to reachout, just to say "hey not everyone is an *******, life is worth living".

 

[mnbvcxz87]

If you help an animal human or non human because, of empathy, you want to help them, that's altruism. It's acting in their benefit for the sake of benefiting them, if it makes you feel good for doing so no problem.

 

[uberd00b]

I think it's important to do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do.

 

[nvxplorer]

I'd say that selflessness is a characteristic unique to Christ on this Earth. However, we can attempt to emulate that characteristic to become more like Him and please Him more

If God desires/requires that we please Him, that would indicate selfishness. If we were created in His image, and are to "become more like Him," seeking to please ourselves would seem to, at least partly, satisfy this objective.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

If God desires/requires that we please Him, that would indicate selfishness. If we were created in His image, and are to "become more like Him," seeking to please ourselves would seem to, at least partly, satisfy this objective.

That kind of logic can lead to dangerous conclusions where this god is concerned.

 

[levi501]

lol, yah let's not think about it too much. We might contradict him out of existence.

 

[mnbvcxz87]

I think 'mysterious ways' covers that.

 

[kopilo]

If you help an animal human or non human because, of empathy, you want to help them, that's altruism. It's acting in their benefit for the sake of benefiting them, if it makes you feel good for doing so no problem.

I try to act for their benifit if I am able to, trying to help for the sake of helping isn't always useful.

 

[Opethian]

There is no true altruism. Every decision and action made by every organism on this planet is made from a perspective to benefit the organism that makes the decision/action. There are some exceptions to this - for example worker ants that will give their life for the queen - but this is just the result of evolutionary processes working on the success of the species, not the individual. The choices/actions that any organism makes is the near-determined (once someone gets the unified theory solved I can say determined) result of their body structures in combination with environmental input received through their senses. There is no free will.
If you think about it from your own perspective, when you are doing something for someone that seems selfless, are you doing it for that person or for the good feeling you will get afterwards? Are you doing it so that the person will owe you and you will receive a benefit later? Are you doing it because others are watching and will be impressed if you do it? If you are doing the "christian" thing, are you doing it for whoever benefits from it or because it makes you feel good or because you want to go to heaven? Are you doing it to be socially accepted? Are you doing it because you admire society and helping society makes you feel good? Obviously, no one's stream of consciousness will consider these things in a concrete and plain way before making the decision/action. You won't hear yourself thinking, "oh, I'll help this old lady over the street to get my fix of serotonins". They are made in a much more subtle, abstract, and partially subconscious way. But if you think about it and pay attention, and above all, are honest to yourself, you will realise that seemingly selfless actions are not selfless at all. They are actions caused by complex combinations of reasons that benefit the maker of the action. And once you realise this, you will realise that being honest to yourself is less self-evident than it seems.

 

[jayem]

As a good Skinnerian behaviorist, I believe one's actions are ultimately maintained by one's own internal rewards. But altruism can be defined somewhat differently. It's when one's internal reward system reinforces behavior which is beneficial to others.

 

[Opethian]

As a good Skinnerian behaviorist, I believe one's actions are ultimately maintained by one's own internal rewards. But altruism can be defined somewhat differently. It's when one's internal reward system reinforces behavior which is beneficial to others.

In that case I would obviously agree.

 

[michabo]

Christians can't act altruisticly because they're just trying to get into Heaven. Only atheists are capable of true altruism

 

[michabo]

There is no true altruism. Every decision and action made by every organism on this planet is made from a perspective to benefit the organism that makes the decision/action. There are some exceptions to this - for example worker ants that will give their life for the queen - but this is just the result of evolutionary processes working on the success of the species, not the individual.

Soooo... So you're saying that there is no true altruism except for the cases of true altruism.

You know that many examples of altruism don't benefit the organism that's displaying the altruism, don't you? What is that if not altruism?

I think you're thinking of the Selfish Gene idea of Dawkins. This isn't meant to disprove the existence of altruism, but rather to give an evolutionary explaination for it. Just because there is a reasonable explaination for it, doesn't make the phenomenon less real.

If you think about it from your own perspective, when you are doing something for someone that seems selfless, are you doing it for that person or for the good feeling you will get afterwards?

If one feels good after doing a good deed, does that make it any less altruistic? Remember that many altruistic acts can kill the people who intervene to help. If they survive, they may feel mildly good about themselves or they may feel less bad than they would have, had they not intervened, but is this enough to say that altruism doesn't exist?

 

[mnbvcxz87]

Opethian there's a few examples of species practising altruism, it could be dolphins protecting a human from sharks, dog's risking their life to pull someone from a dangerous situation, monkeys refusing food because the experimenters cause audible pain to a second monkey in order for the first to take food (and even starve) and more but then of course there's human actions. Humans act for the benefit of others in a thousand examples, as michabo points out if after doing so they feel good, it doesn't make the action any less altruistic. Feeling good about doing a good thing would be normal I'd suggest.

Kamuniak would also be a pretty special case of altruism.

 

[JGG]

If God desires/requires that we please Him, that would indicate selfishness. If we were created in His image, and are to "become more like Him," seeking to please ourselves would seem to, at least partly, satisfy this objective.

So, why then are heaven and hell even necessary?

 

[JGG]

Christians can't act altruisticly because they're just trying to get into Heaven. Only atheists are capable of true altruism

Hear, hear!