Alternatives to Historicism?

[MRHarvey]

Hello, everbody!

I have read from a number of reliable sources that many Progressive or Moderate or Former Seventh-Day Adventists are reconsidering the denomiation's historicist interpertation of Bible prophecy. In particular, they are reconsidering the set of intepretations that points to 1844 as the pivotal year in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

It is not my intention here to start a discussion to evaluate that interpretation, nor to decide whether that interpertation is right or wrong. (I know that several such disucussions have already taken place within the Christian Forums.) I would just like to pose three simple questions ...

(1) Among those who are reconsidering the historicist interpretation, what alternatives are they considering?
(2) Is there any identifiable group of Progressive/Moderate/Former Adventists who are seriously considering a Dispensationalist intepretation of Bible prophecy? (Personally, I believe that the doctrinal view that holds the birth of the birth of the modern-day state of Israel, which happened in 1948, and Israel's regaining control of all of Jerusalem, which happened in 1967, are direct fulfillments of Bible prophecy, should be AT LEAST given serious thought by all Christians who earnestly want to know the truth!)
(3) Can any of you give me any links to more information about this subject?

Once again, for the sake of clarification and with all due respect to those of you who might offer me links to Web pages supporting or defending the historicist interpertation, that is NOT what I am looking for at this time. I am just looking for alternatives that are seriously being considered by Adventists.

Thanks in advance!

Mark

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Hi Mark,
I have found no basis for concluding that:

• 1844 was an important date in Bible prophecy.
• God intended for prophecies to be viewed according to a "year-day" principle.
• "Time, Times and Half a time" relate to any events that took place within the last 200 years.
• The concepts of "the antichrist," "the beast" and "the man of sin" are limited to the papacy.

I am neither a preterist nor a futurist, and I have not only reconsidered the SDA perspective on Bible prophecy, but I have instead abandoned it completely.

Though I'm not a dispensationalist, I believe that the new covenant is indeed new (and is not merely the old covenant with a different name).

I do not believe that I must have all of the correct answers prior to recognizing that a proposed prophetic interpretation runs contrary to my understanding of the Scriptures. I recognize that I have not unlocked the meaning of every Bible prophecy, and that recognition does not alarm me. Although I believe it is good to read prophetic books, my life is not defined by a desire to predict the future.

With respect to Bible prophecy, I believe that God has told us what would come to pass before it came to pass so that, when it came to pass, we might believe. Although I believe that certain prophecies relate to the future, I don't share the SDA view that the main objective of Bible prophecy is to predict the future.

BFA

 

[MRHarvey]

Hi, Byfaithalone!

Thank you for your reply!

I have found no basis for concluding that:

• 1844 was an important date in Bible prophecy.
• God intended for prophecies to be viewed according to a "year-day" principle.
• "Time, Times and Half a time" relate to any events that took place within the last 200 years.
• The concepts of "the antichrist," "the beast" and "the man of sin" are limited to the papacy

I agree with you 100% on all of those points, and that is a large part of the reason why I am not a Sevnth-Day Adventist myself, as much as I respect the SDA's!


To very quickly summrize what I believe about end-time Bible prophecy ... at the present time, I am leaning in the direction of a futurist/Dispensationalist interptetation. But nothing is etched in stone, as respects what I believe about that subject. I have changed my mind several times in the past, and it is not unlikely that I will again. As respects the "rapture", I am leaning in the direction of a "pre-trib rapture" at the present time, but by no means would I absolutely insist that that interpretation is correct!

There is just one point of doctrine -- on the subject of Bible prophecy -- that is almost etched in stone for me ... I believe very strongly that the Second Coming of Christ will be premillenial, and not postmillenial nor amillenial. I would be very surprised if I were to ever change my mind on that point of doctrine!

I do not believe that I must have all of the correct answers prior to recognizing that a proposed prophetic interpretation runs contrary to my understanding of the Scriptures.

Once again, I agree with you fully! As a matter of fact, I don't believe that I will have all the correct answers in this lifetime! I don't believe that anybody has or will!

That said, I still wrestle with this fear: I sometimes fear that if I have not unlocked the correct meaning of this or that particular prophetic Scripture, God will not hear and answer my prayers as much! I don't even know why I get that feeling of fear someitmes; I just do!

Although I believe it is good to read prophetic books, my life is not defined by a desire to predict the future.

Absoultely! I have heard and read it said, by several different teachers and writers, that the purpose of prophets in the Bible was not so much to predict the future, but -- first and foremost -- to warn the people about the impending judgment of God! As a matter of fact, the very word, prophet, actually means, "One who speaks for God!" The word doesn't mean one who foretells the future!

Although I believe that certain prophecies relate to the future, I don't share the SDA view that the main objective of Bible prophecy is to predict the future.

Once again, I agree with you completely. And to expand on what I said above, I have heard someone say that the purpose of a prophet was not so much to be a foreteller as to be a forth-teller.

Perhaps we can take this discussion in a new direction, BFA! Maybe we can discuss this question: Instead of studying Bible prophecy with the intention of trying to predict the future, how can we study Bible prophecy and learn practical principles -- that is, learn more about how you and I should live our day-to-day Christian lives -- from it? Would you be interested in discussing that topic, BFA?

Your friend in Christ,

Mark

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Maybe we can discuss this question: Instead of studying Bible prophecy with the intention of trying to predict the future, how can we study Bible prophecy and learn practical principles -- that is, learn more about how you and I should live our day-to-day Christian lives -- from it? Would you be interested in discussing that topic, BFA?

Sure. Although I certainly don't have answers regarding prophecy, I still find it a valuable topic to discuss. For example, in studying Revelation, I've noted that names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. This helps me to understand God's intent toward mand and it tells me something about who God is and how He operates.

Is there something specifc you'd like to discuss?

BFA

 

[Restin]

Perhaps we can take this discussion in a new direction, BFA! Maybe we can discuss this question: Instead of studying Bible prophecy with the intention of trying to predict the future, how can we study Bible prophecy and learn practical principles -- that is, learn more about how you and I should live our day-to-day Christian lives -- from it? Would you be interested in discussing that topic, BFA

Sure. Although I certainly don't have answers regarding prophecy, I still find it a valuable topic to discuss. For example, in studying Revelation, I've noted that names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. This helps me to understand God's intent toward mand and it tells me something about who God is and how He operates.

Is there something specifc you'd like to discuss?

BFA

Appreciate the comments. For some time I have wanted to discuss what the prophesies symbolized. IE: Is there a symbolic meaning that is practical in our every-day life today in the words 'Time, Times and Half a time?.

In Christ......Restin

 

[MRHarvey]

I hope I do not sound like I am contradicting myself in this message. I don't intend to.

I have acknowledged that the purpose of Bible prophecy (IMHO, at least) is not, first and foremost, to fortell the future. However, Byfaithalone did say,

With respect to Bible prophecy, I believe that God has told us what would come to pass before it came to pass so that, when it came to pass, we might believe. Although I believe that certain prophecies relate to the future, I don't share the SDA view that the main objective of Bible prophecy is to predict the future.

Therefore, I would suggest that two events that I mentioned in my first posting in this thread were two examples of God telling us what would come to pass so that people would believe the Bible. Namely, (1) the birth of the modern-day nation of Israel in 1948, and (2) Israel's recapture of all of Jerusalem in 1967.

Are there any other people out there who want to express their views on that, one way or the other?

As a matter of fact, those two evnts alone -- as far as I'm concerned -- provide absolute, irrefutable proof that the Bible is the Word of God!

God bless you all!

Mark

 

[RND]

(1) the birth of the modern-day nation of Israel in 1948, and (2) Israel's recapture of all of Jerusalem in 1967.

Just because someone claims to be an Israelite doesn't make them an Israelite. The modern, secular, nation-state that is modern Israel is just that, a modern, secular, nation-state - it is not a separate body of believers as compared to another separate body of believers.

God is not a respecter of persons. All are free to accept the Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ, in light, in spirit and in truth.

In order for the Gospel to flourish in was taken from those that wanted nothing to do with it and given to another, specifically, the Gentiles. There is so much clearly Biblical evidence that one is not saved based on their race or creed but simply on their acceptance of what the Lamb of God has done for them.



The link above is to a wonderfully clear and concise video that demonstrates that those that have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior have become members of the Nation of Israel, Jesus being the King of that Nation.

A "Jew" is not one by birth but by "conviction." It is a remarkably sad and extremely dangerous theology that teaches God saves Jews separately from Christians.

Christianity owes it's roots to the ancient Hebrew religions and as such it is actually closer aligned to them than anything else. Unfortunately, most modern versions of Christianity (including some form of Adventism) have strayed completely away from the close ties it has with the Hebraic religion.

The fact remains, and will forever remain, that if anyone, no matter who they are, wishes to partake in the celebration of the Passover Lamb and enjoy the covering of the shed blood of the Passover Lamb they merely have to accept the sacrifice and be circumcised (in the heart, not the flesh). Once they accept the Lamb and are circumcised in the heart they become members of the Nation of Israel with all the rights and privileges of a citizen of that Nation. See Exodus 12:48-49.

Once the justification that the Passover Lamb represents is accepted one is now free to enter into the Sanctuary and approach the Holy of Hollies and enjoy the sanctification process.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

 

[JohnT]

I hope I do not sound like I am contradicting myself in this message. I don't intend to.

I have acknowledged that the purpose of Bible prophecy (IMHO, at least) is not, first and foremost, to fortell the future. However, Byfaithalone did say,

Therefore, I would suggest that two events that I mentioned in my first posting in this thread were two examples of God telling us what would come to pass so that people would believe the Bible. Namely, (1) the birth of the modern-day nation of Israel in 1948, and (2) Israel's recapture of all of Jerusalem in 1967.

Are there any other people out there who want to express their views on that, one way or the other?

As a matter of fact, those two evnts alone -- as far as I'm concerned -- provide absolute, irrefutable proof that the Bible is the Word of God!
God bless you all! Mark

Mark, let me recommend to you a most excellent book by Millard Erikson called Contemporary Options in Eschatology Baker Book House (ISBN 0-8010-3262-8) Amazon has it fir under a dollar--just checked

The book is thoroughly Evangelical, and has been praised by both liberals and conservatives. It takes all of the forms of eschatological views and analyzes them for the pro and the anti side. Until you read the epilogue you can't tell from where he is coming. And that's good.

In order to get a handle on these things there are several terms that you should know:
Amillinneal means that there will be no 1000 years-long reign of Christ.

Postmillinneal means that the events in Revelation will come AFTER the 1000 years-long reign of Christ

Premillennial means that Christ will come before the events in Revelation

Bible believers of all sorts can find Scriptural justification for each of the positions above, and believing one over the other is NOT a test of one's salvation, although there are some camps who say that their denominational founders have the only view that is correct. But that is not a Biblically correct statement. Run from those saying that.

Among those in the Premillinnial camp there are three different viewpoints regarding Christ's return. Each of them stress the immanence (immediacy) of Christ's return, and each of them say He can come before the period in this sentence.

The main question to them is when in regard to world events, specifically the Great Tribulation will Christ return? Therefore we have three segments each with their Bibically-based view:

Pretribulation means that Christ will come before the Great Tribulation, taking up all believers with Him (Rapture) and it is the fiew favored by most Dispensationalists, but that is not necessarilly the "correct position" for there are others believing the Bible who believe that Christ will come in the middle of the tribulation.

Mid-Tribulationists believe that the Great Tribulation may be like the 10 plagues of Egypt. You will see some instances where the land of Goshen was protected from some of the plagues. On most days of the week, this is what I believe.

Post Tribulationists believe that Christ will return when gas prices in the USA reach $10.00 per gallon. Just kidding! But they DO believe that Christ will return to take up His church after the nasty Great Tribulation

After the taking away of the church happens, the people in EACH of the three above camps believe that the 1000 years-long reign of Christ will happen after which the Great War in Heaven will begin, culumnating in the populating of Hell with Satan and all the rebellious angels (demons)

You will note that I did not mention 1844 and Sanctuary. That does not fit into ANY of the above beliefs. You need to determine of the Miller doctrines are supported in Scripture.

Hope this helps!