Alternative stream?

[spiritplumber]

First the creation museum, now stuff like this: http://tinyurl.com/2jjtxn

Are hardcore creationists trying to set up an alternative scientific infrastructure so that they may ignore that the real scientific infrastructure exists?

(ultimately, the average citizen only interacts with science during museum visits, science fairs etc.)

 

[RealityCheck]

Answer: Yes.

But why do they have to actively sabotage American science power in doing so?

 

[Paulos23]

I think that is the saddest part of creationists efforts to get their bible into science classes, the long term harm they are doing to the USA as a leader for science. Saying 'Goddidit' and accepting that as an answer, or misrepresenting facts to fit the bible really is not helping our kids to learn about the world around them. And it really kills scientific curiosity.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

Answer: Yes.

But why do they have to actively sabotage American science power in doing so?

Because, like the religious zealots of the dark ages, they realize that proper education is corrosive to a lot of their fundamentalist dogma. This is all just part of the growing religious war on science. ID, creationist museums, separate schools, etc. Anything to try to maintain their mindshare and subsequent wealth / power that it affords them.

 

[Dannager]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1st place: Brian Benson, eighth grade — Creationism Is the Winner![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]That's the part about it that I find worrying. He set up an experiment to create stalactites with a paper towel roll and some water and epsom salts. He says it disproves part of evolutionary theory.

Of course evolutionary theory has nothing to do with stalactites. It's also worth noting that if stalactites actually formed this quickly you would see them everywhere, and they would grow like bamboo.

Creationists, what the heck? You're screwing up your children. Instead of conducting a science experiment to learn something worthwhile about science, your children are conducting bogus science under ridiculous preconceived notions and are coming up with laughable conclusions (not to mention learning to needlessly distrust the scientific community). How in the world can you possibly be proud of yourselves?

 

[Loudmouth]

That's the part about it that I find worrying. He set up an experiment to create stalactites with a paper towel roll and some water and epsom salts. He says it disproves part of evolutionary theory.

It doesn't even disprove standard geologic observations that lead to a conclusion of old age. Argon/Argon dating, oxygen isotope fluctuations, and other radiometric dating techniques (U/Th?). Did this kid run these tests? Probably not.

This paper was referenced at Talkorigins and looks like a good resource. I wonder how this kids experiment stacks up to the real deal.

Instead of conducting a science experiment to learn something worthwhile about science, your children are conducting bogus science under ridiculous preconceived notions and are coming up with laughable conclusions (not to mention learning to needlessly distrust the scientific community). How in the world can you possibly be proud of yourselves?

This goes far beyond children. This is exactly what creationist organizations such as ICR and the RATE group are [in]famous for. Austin and Snelling are well known in evo v. creo circles for dating rocks contaminated with xenocrysts, for one example.

 

[flatworm]

Answer: Yes.

But why do they have to actively sabotage American science power in doing so?

Because creationism is only part of a larger parallel structure being erected by religious extremists in America. Other parts include:

1) Parallel history - Glossing over evidence for the secular leanings of several founding fathers, reinventing Hitler as an atheist, and ignoring the glaring lack of evidence for many stories of the Bible.

2) Parallel political system - Ignoring the constitution whenever it becomes inconvenient, creating a fast track for home schooled kids through Fundamentalist "colleges" straight into appointments in the executive branch.

3) Parallel military - Consider the whole militia movement, plus militaristic propaganda groups like Battle Cry as recruiting tools.

 

[WhiteMageGirl]

I can't believe that project would win anything. Especially since it's point is pointless. I would ask him which part of "changes in fequences of alelles" he set out to disprove, and give him a failing grade for not having any relevance to the subject of Biology.

It's kind of like building a rocket and claiming it disproves heliocentric models of the solar system, or gravity.

My fourth grade project consisted of building a model rocket and using launching it however an overpowered D rated motor marked it's end.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

I can't believe that project would win anything. Especially since it's point is pointless.

Is it really? I think there is always a point. You just have to work a little harder to find it sometimes. Or look at things from a different angle.

This happened at a religious academy. The judges took a look at the sweet opportunity to make a statement in an effort to promote their agenda that this project would have won first place if the kid stood there picking his nose instead of giving his presentation.

 

[TurtleTamer]

I would have submitted a jar of peanut butter as a project. For my demonstration I would open them up and demonstrate that hamsters didn't spontaneously generate in it.

I would also have bananas and demonstrate how a selectively bred fruit just happened to end up in a form that is convenient for us.

I would then make sandwiches from the above.

On a more serious note, while that experiment was rather disturbing, most of the others were legitimate science fair type stuff. Besides, anything that promotes an interest in science, even if it starts out with bad science, is more likely to get the kids to think about it than just working off the evolution=the devil premise. Hopefully, they will be able to make the transition without losing their faith.

 

[WhiteMageGirl]

Is it really? I think there is always a point. You just have to work a little harder to find it sometimes. Or look at things from a different angle.

There is a point but it is pointness because it only affirms preconceived ideas without much effort and by means of a giant strawman. If I ever went to a science fair where a project like that won, as a person of science I would fuss.

This happened at a religious academy. The judges took a look at the sweet opportunity to make a statement in an effort to promote their agenda that this project would have won first place if the kid stood there picking his nose instead of giving his presentation.

I don't doubt that.

 

[Morcova]

I have no problem with this, let them teach there kids whatever they want, when my kids get hungry after long hours working in a lab there will have to be somebodies kid to man the drive thru at Mc Donalds.

 

[spiritplumber]

Kinda stinks for the other kids in the category who got bumped down a notch in the rankings.

 

[RealityCheck]

Kinda stinks for the other kids in the category who got bumped down a notch in the rankings.

That certainly is the worst thing about it.

 

[RealityCheck]

I have no problem with this, let them teach there kids whatever they want, when my kids get hungry after long hours working in a lab there will have to be somebodies kid to man the drive thru at Mc Donalds.

Or greet you when you walk into Wal-Mart.

 

[Ganymede]

Answer: Yes.

But why do they have to actively sabotage American science power in doing so?

Don't worry - I'm sure they're not teaching the bible in science classes in China and India. The impending colapse of American scientific pre-eminince won't slow scientific progress one bit IMO.

 

[WhiteMageGirl]

I have no problem with this, let them teach there kids whatever they want, when my kids get hungry after long hours working in a lab there will have to be somebodies kid to man the drive thru at Mc Donalds.

Actually, my brother graduated from a private school ran by fundies. All male students from that school and another in the area(except my brother) are in the military. That's their career advice at the private schools in my area. My mom had to talk and talk and talk to get my brother out of joining and to keep his job that he already had.

If I decide to take a break after next year when I get my four year degree in Biology/minor edu to teach, I'm going to push my students towards college as much as those fundies were pushing students towards the military.

 

[Contracelsus]

America has some of the best technical schools on the planet, yet we have ever decreasing enrollment in the sciences and engineering for our citizens.

I was at a science conference recently and in a keynote talk about doing business in China I heard that China has 600,000 engineering grads (to the U.S.'s 70,000), 0.06% of the Chinese population versus 0.02% of the US population (the source was quoted as the CIA Factbook).

China recently declared that one of the goals of their 11th 5-year plan was not only to be the "workshop" for the world but to take a lead in producing home-brands to sell around the world. Not just make stuff for other companies.

Some companies are already seeing the value of tapping into China's on-shore R&D and their low-cost, high skill technical labor force.

Once China gets a better handle on intellectual property protection, and general infrastructure, the U.S. will have to deal with a very quick decline.

When you also factor in other emergent markets such as India with the venerable India Institute of Technology (IIT), you can see the writing on the wall for American leadership in technical fields.

Of course interjecting religion into science classes in our schools with the only stated goal of "muddying the waters" (ie "teaching the controversy") will probably act as a really good catalyst to speed up our decline.

I only hope it takes about 22 years so I can be retired by the time it hits.

 

[spiritplumber]

Here's a funny one for you about decreasing enrollment in engineering...

A friend of mine in a university in California who is a sftware engineer was asked to not take a class that semester (as in, wait for the next) because the instructor for the course was Chinese, his five classmates were all Chinese, and if he didn't attend the instructor could just have held lectures in Chinese. This was last semester (fall 2006), and he waited.

What I see happening is that the pattern for engineering students was "try and go study in the US, stay there and get a job" whereby now it's "try and go study in the US, not find a job because of little demand or visa issues, go back home". While that's nice of the US government to foster competition this way, it seems to me it's not very smart of them in the long run.