Alright ...So What Are The Options ...?

[Armistead]

My question is... why can't christians stop hating the gays? (I think i'd be great if you stop hating on the atheists too, but we'll get to that).
Fine, i get it. Your religious beliefs clearly indicate we're not going to your heaven. Why must some christians restrict our lives and our happiness here on earth? If I want to commit my life to someone, how does that harm you or your religion or your faith or your ability to connect with your god and go to heaven?

As a Christian, I don't hate gays. My views have changed over time with more thought and study. There are so many factors involved. I find most gays to be loving people.

There are many possible reasons for homosexual behavior. Certainly, many studies were put away that showed there were many childhood connections to this behavior, abuse, overbearing parent of the opposite sex, ect. However, this can't be conclusive. However, someone that is gay should not ignore problems from childhood that may have led to homosexuality. Not to change sexuality, but to deal with the issue. Many do this and do change. Other deal and stay gay.

I don't think there is any doubt some people are born gay. However, today I think it is different. Children are taught at an early age that it is normal. It is all over TV.
For many today growing up they just do it and try. The number of bi experiences have increased a 100 fold. To me this is not true gay behavior, just try anything behavior for fun. Girls certainly play bi a lot today as an attention getter for guys.

Regardless of belief, I believe gays have the right to marry. We are not a theocracy. If two adults that obey the law want to love and abide in marriage they should have that right. Many gays have children that live with gay parents. They don't have the same protections of s8 marriages. As a Christian, I say why not give people the commitment of monogamy that marriage should afford. Even if you don't agree with it, why not promote love and monogamy when people want it. They still live together, so not allowing marriage is not changing behavior.

It's silly to think allowing gay marriage will ruin traditional marriage. That is we allow it, somehow we all are gonna turn gay and traditional marriage will be a thing of the past. The many problems with traditional marriage, divorce today were not caused by gays. It also insures rights that are taken away by government to children, insurance, ect. To me it's the Christian thing to do.

Also, where once I was a fundie, I am now UR. I believe Christ died for all and that the bible clearly teaches that. Come visit our many UR threads in the this forum.

The problem I have is the left wing agenda to promote gayness in every form on children. Sexuality should only be taught from a medical standpoint in school. There are too many programs pushing this viewpoint on others.
However, if people were to live and let live..it probably wouldn't be an issue.

If your gay, accept Christ. Still, with all sexuality the sin is using sex in a way that would cause harm. That is the sin.

Live in peace.

 

[Armistead]

I guess that I'm about to go off-topic momentarily. But I find it necessary to do so. I don't apologize for what might be considered a rant.

Frankly, I don't see how anyone can connect to the God of the Old Testament ...I really don't. A warm, tender, loving God He ain't, let's face it. And yet most Christians accept the 'bully God' of the OT without question. Until recently - VERY recently - I had put such personal doubts about 'a loving God' in the 'it's too hard for me to understand but I have to accept it in order to consider myself a Christian' basket. Today that basket is full to overflowing and these days I really am looking for answers to my previous, but covert, nagging doubts about the God of the OT.

I try to separate Jesus from God since, according to their nature, the two don't even appear to be relatives. Then again, we are told that Jesus was half-divine/half-human just like Mr. Spock from Star Trek was half-Vulcan/half-human. So, was the human side of Jesus the one that we as humans are meant to identify with? In fact, how CAN we HONESTLY identify with a DIVINE being? Despite the fact that as a professed Christian I'm supposed to relate to God, or at least SAY that I do, in all honesty I can't relate to God at all. Furthermore, these days I really don't care who might get offended by that piece of honesty.

There seems to be a lot of the God of the OT in the hearts of many present-day Christians. This may very well please them as, after all, He is the God they profess to serve. But the God of the OT displays little to no 'love' as such. Some, even many, present-day Christians, have taken on the role of stern 'watch-dogs' of the 'written word of God' (?). They (those pious ones of 'the book') come down hard on those they consider to be 'lesser' Christians than themselves. These 'lesser' Christians are often those who still retain their God-given reasoning and logical attributes DESPITE their belief in Jesus. What makes them 'lesser' is that they don't have the 'written word of God' (?) strapped to their foreheads.

While not exclusively so, it's these kinds of 'lesser' Christians who REASON that 'gay' people did not choose to be 'gay' simply to 'bug' God and Christinity in general. They also REASON that 'gays' would generally recognize their 'gayness' as being a 'sin' that is 'abominable' to God only after being bombarded with Christian rhetoric for so long that it becomes ingrained in their psyche. They also REASON that homosexuality cannot be 'reversed' by the reciting of a few ambiguous texts from a book or by being hit over the head constantly with those same verses by others who are sinners themselves even though they may believe otherwise.

The results of Christian ignorance/lack of understanding/acceptance of those who wear different mocassins are far reaching. Some homosexuals become so guilt-ridden by the preaching of mainstream Christianity that a terrible conflict occurs in their lives. Those (homosexuals) who have a strong desire to seek Jesus cannot do so as long as they remain 'gay'. They are persistently told this by the 'pious ones'. And so they pray for deliverence from their homosexuality. And they pray. And they pray. When nothing 'positive' occurs and they are still as 'gay' as they always were they now have an extra burden to carry. And many Christians will be all too willing to add more and more weight to that burden. The 'gay' person who prayed for deliverence did not receive any response from Jesus because of their lack of faith/reluctance to let go of their 'cherished sin'. Double whammy!

The answer to this dilemma is really quite simple. Human beings are complex and diverse 'pieces of machinery'. But they are not machines, of course, but treasures of Go ...um ...Jesus. We need to accept a 'gay' person just as they are. The 'I am a better person/Christian than you because you don't believe what I believe' has got to stop. A fellow sinner is in no position to get behind a self-made pulpit and preach to others "Thou shalt be righteous like me!" when that is no less than hypocrisy. "There is none righteous, no not one (Roman 3:10)." So, don't do it!

Particularly disturbing in regard to the issue of homosexuality is that the Bible - no doubt in MOST cases - is used persistently to support one's own prejudice against homosexuality. This is an absolute 'no-no'. One needs to be honest with themselves and admit to this if it be the case. It probably IS! So, don't do it!

"SO WHAT if you are drawn to someone of the same gender whereas I am drawn to someone of the opposite gender? I am not you and you are not me."

"SO WHAT if I can continue to populate an already overcrowded planet whereas you probably will not contribute because you're 'gay'? I am not you and you are not me."

"SO WHAT if I find the thought of homosexual sex 'foreign' whereas you find the thought of heterosexual sex 'foreign'? I am not you and you are not me."

"SO WHAT if you're 'gay' and I'm 'straight' ...whatever that means ...? I am not you and you are not me. You have the same right as I do to seek Jesus in your life. Come on in."

Unworkable rhetoric? Probably.

Honest, well written and one of the best post I've read in a long time. Most do not question religion, just believe the religeous doctrines past on and on. If most were honest, they cannot understand God of the OT and the teachings of Christ. It comes from taking everything in the OT as literal and all the cultural teachings during that time as God inspired.

We almost must realize that the OT was written by Jews for Jews during that time. The God of the OT does seem cruel, often promotes death, ect. It's hard to grasp compared to Christ. However, take war. Even today we pray for victory and death over any enemy. Many of our writings today would match that of the OT. I don't think that makes it God inspired, no more than many things written in the OT. Not that I don't believe the bible is God's word. I just believe people take too much as literal, when in so many cases it was poetic rendering, parables or metaphoric.

 

[Armistead]

So if someone told us that god to him to kill no believers... is that contrary to god's word or not? The OT is pretty clear on how to deal with non-believers and heretics, but the NT contradicts this a little.

If someone says that jesus told them that he died for their sins, and he loves them and accepts their sexuality as is and if they live their life in his name. That sounds like it goes along with some things in the bible, but not other contradictory things in the bible.. so which is it?

Also... are you wearing cloth made of two fabric?

There is one law to live by regarding sin and Christ made that clear. To love God and others. The bible tells us we love others by
"doing no harm" and states that this "fulfills all the law". If you live like that, you are abiding in Christ's law.

However, many Christians live by codes of men, never questioning. They have been taught to question is a sin. They have been taught guilt and fear. In the early days, men knew they could control people if they controlled their belief in God. By instilling guilt, fear and never questioning...they take total contol over the mind of the individual. Even Christians that start questioning often fear doing it.

That is why religion is the cause of most wars and why peple honestly can kill in the name of God. It's why Bush thinks he is right. However, Christ is not that way, but sadly religion has corrupted the teachings of Christ and legalism rules the day. Another reason many Christians are miserable and do nothing but judge other people.

 

[David Brider]

Why do gays and atheist or atheistic gays or gays who claim to be disciples of Christ construe preaching the truth of God's Word as hate?

Because sometimes - not always - the people preaching (what they see as) the truth of God's Word do so in a manner that comes across as hateful.

David.

 

[*Starlight*]

It's natural that some people are homosexual, and it means that they are meant to live in a same-sex relationship with another person, in the same way as heterosexuals are meant to live in an opposite-sex relationship with another person. There are no other possibilities... a person can't just change their sexual orientation, and forcing someone to be celibate is wrong, because people aren't meant to be alone.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

It's natural that some people are homosexual, and it means that they are meant to live in a same-sex relationship with another person, in the same way as heterosexuals are meant to live in an opposite-sex relationship with another person. There are no other possibilities... a person can't just change their sexual orientation, and forcing someone to be celibate is wrong, because people aren't meant to be alone.

Define natural?

 

[KCKID]

Define natural?

The word 'natural' probably regarding this issue is defined by my dictionary as 'not acquired; innate' - or - 'being so through innate qualities.'

 

[Apollo Celestio]

The word 'natural' probably regarding this issue is defined by my dictionary as 'not acquired; innate' - or - 'being so through innate qualities.'

I see. So in the Christian context, things we all can agree, is natural always good?

 

[KCKID]

I see. So in the Christian context, things we all can agree, is natural always good?

If you are naturally 'you' - quite happy to be 'you' and not a threat or a problem to anyone else - then why would it be better or 'good' if you were unnaturally NOT 'you'?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

If you are naturally 'you' - quite happy to be 'you' and not a threat or a problem to anyone else - then why would it be better or 'good' if you were unnaturally NOT 'you'?

Well, if it is contrary to the law of God? But then again, will this happen in a repentant heart? Will a repentant heart be happy in sin? I don't think we should put conditions on this "natural".

 

[KCKID]

Well, if it is contrary to the law of God? But then again, will this happen in a repentant heart? Will a repentant heart be happy in sin? I don't think we should put conditions on this "natural".

So, are you saying that the natural 'you' (whoever) can be a 'sin' as such and might need to be repented of? Hmm ...

 

[*Starlight*]

I see. So in the Christian context, things we all can agree, is natural always good?

No, just because something's natural doesn't mean it's necessarily good. But it means that people who say "homosexuality is a choice" (there are lots of people who say so) are wrong.

In my opinion, homosexuality is good (just as good as heterosexuality) not because it's natural, but because it brings two people together to live in love.

 

[Phinehas2]

Sorry but Jesus Christ's NT teaching is that we are bought a price, our lives are no longer our own we have given up everything. All I see in the homosexual debate is people not prepared to give up something.

 

[KCKID]

Sorry but Jesus Christ's NT teaching is that we are bought a price, our lives are no longer our own we have given up everything. All I see in the homosexual debate is people not prepared to give up something.

Oh dear, I sound like a worn-out recording but - again - Jesus Christ's NT teaching included NOTHING about homosexuality!

Incidentally, what are homosexuals supposed to 'give up', Phinehas? Smoking? Drinking? Over-eating? What?

 

[*Starlight*]

Sorry but Jesus Christ's NT teaching is that we are bought a price, our lives are no longer our own we have given up everything. All I see in the homosexual debate is people not prepared to give up something.

Why would someone need to give up love for God? We're supposed to give up things that cause harm, not things that are good.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear KCKID,
Sorry but Jesus Christ's NT teaching is that we are bought a price, our lives are no longer our own we have given up everything. All I see in the homosexual debate is people not prepared to give up something.

Oh dear, I sound like a worn-out recording but - again - Jesus Christ's NT teaching included NOTHING about homosexuality!

I refereed to what He did say not what you think He didn’t say.

Incidentally, what are homosexuals supposed to 'give up', Phinehas? Smoking? Drinking? Over-eating? What?

If He didn’t talk about homosexuals who are they? In that respect He didnt teach anything about heterosexuality either. The fact is He did teach about adultery and same-sex being wrong which I would say falls into activities by what you call heterosexual and homosexual. Remember I don’t even use those labels as God created man and woman not heterosexual and homosexual.
People are supposed to avoid drunkeness overeating as well as same-sex sex, all were mentioned, as was adultery

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear *Starlight*

Why would someone need to give up love for God? We're supposed to give up things that cause harm, not things that are good.

I was referring to same-sex unions not love. Jesus loved His disciples who were of the same sex but He wasnt in sexual unions with them. I wasn't talkimng about love but same-sex unions. As with any other sexual immorality it causes harm to ones own body which is a temple of the Holy Spirit... all in 1 Corinthians 6.

 

[*Starlight*]

Dear *Starlight*
I was referring to same-sex unions not love. Same-sex unions as with any other sexual immorality cause harm to ones own body which is a temple of the Holy Spirit... all in 1 Corinthians 6.[/COLOR]

Same sex unions are the same as opposite sex unions. What would make them any more harmful?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear *Starlight*

Same sex unions are the same as opposite sex unions.

No they are not. One is with the same-sex and one is with the opposite sex. God created man and woman to unite and be faithful therefore adulterous and same-sex unions are sexual immorality.

What would make them any more harmful?

To whom?

 

[*Starlight*]

Dear *Starlight*
No they are not. One is with the same-sex and one is with
the opposite sex.

But that's not a big difference, the nature of the relationship is still exactly the same.

God created man and woman to unite and be faithful therefore adulterous and same-sex unions are sexual immorality.

Why? I don't see the logical connection here. God created homosexuals as well, by the way.

To whom?

To anyone?