Almost impossible for rich to enter heaven?

Booko · Mar 17, 2012

Viren said:
Detachment is the key. Jesus tested the rich young man by asking him to give away his possessions to the poor, but he couldn't let them go.

Exactly so! It's often misquoted as "money is the root of all evil" but the real quote says the love of money is the root of all evil.

I think it was last year someone in the U.S. did some looking into wealth and discovered that on average if you made more than $70K none of the added wealth added to your happiness. (I'm sure in NYC it would be a higher figure, but still.)

razeontherock · Mar 18, 2012

hikersong said:
You've written three posts saying what it's not about Tamara. Are you just trying to build up courage to give your own opinion on it.

No, she is being lead by the Spirit of G-d. His ways are not mysterious; this is what He does, and how He works.

hikersong · Mar 18, 2012

razeontherock said:
No, she is being lead by the Spirit of G-d. His ways are not mysterious; this is what He does, and how He works.

We're all being "led by the Spirit" Ray. Sometimes we just need a little help in responding. That's ALL I was doing. She clearly wanted to say something and after I encouraged her ( you missed the wink smiley off your quote I notice) she said it. Stop pretending that you are on a higher plane of existence.

GaryS · Mar 18, 2012

Jane_the_Bane said:
Let's start with the "camel"-bit: there have been several attempts at explaining this weird imagery throughout the millennia.

It means what it says. Compare to these Talmudic aphorisms:

" who can make an elephant pass through the eye of a needle."

"They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."

Jesus and his audience would very likely have been familiar with these sayings. It's an example of something that cannot be done.

someguy14 · Mar 18, 2012

God is so wonderful.

razeontherock · Mar 18, 2012

hikersong said:
We're all being "led by the Spirit" Ray. Sometimes we just need a little help in responding. That's ALL I was doing. She clearly wanted to say something and after I encouraged her ( you missed the wink smiley off your quote I notice) she said it. Stop pretending that you are on a higher plane of existence.

I would tell you to stop pretending apophatic theology has no value and is not the primary way G-d communicates - except I'm not a control freak. I will realize you can do that until your dying breath if you so choose, and I will merely point out it's not a good idea.

razeontherock · Mar 18, 2012

GaryS said:
Jesus and his audience would very likely have been familiar with these sayings. It's an example of something that cannot be done.

This ignores the value of the Scripture under examination in the thread

BruceDLimber · Mar 18, 2012

Booko said:
I think it was last year someone in the U.S. did some looking into wealth and discovered that on average if you made more than $70K none of the added wealth added to your happiness.

Oh, REALLY?

I would LOVE to have enough added wealth to kill off our last remaining mortgage, which would greatly increase our options and flexibility as well as our nominal wealth! Not to mention our happiness.

Bruce

Booko · Mar 18, 2012

BruceDLimber said:
Oh, REALLY?

I would LOVE to have enough added wealth to kill off our last remaining mortgage, which would greatly increase our options and flexibility as well as our nominal wealth! Not to mention our happiness.

Uh yeah, Bruce, where you live the mortgage for an average house is well above the national median.

We could use a spare $200K as well, for the out of pocket medical expenses we've had to incur just to keep me and the daughter alive. To say we are leveraged to the hilt is an understatement. And now dh's job is shipped off to India.

You can't take the general and apply it to every specific situation. I made a general statement.

hikersong · Mar 18, 2012

razeontherock said:
I would tell you to stop pretending apophatic theology has no value and is not the primary way G-d communicates - except I'm not a control freak.

What is apophatic theology?

And, umm, you say you're not a control freak, yet you diss anyone who disagrees with you about bible texts(pretty much everybody, thought I'm sure you see that as a badge of honour). Also, I'm getting the impression (but you never say anything very clearly...maybe that's what apophatic means...so I could be wrong) that you were implying that I'm a control freak. Based on what? The fact that I criticise you? The fact that I don't bow down and worship the "depth" of your biblical insight? I'm not trying to stop you thinking whatever you want to think...but I would like you to stop telling everyone else that they shouldn't criticise your thinking or else they are stupid, deliberately dishonest, without your insight etc, etc, etc.

You probably don't believe me, but I like to read your posts...except when you're butchering and manipulating the bible text to some, yet to be identified, but undoubtedly deeply spiritual end.

razeontherock · Mar 18, 2012

hikersong said:
What is apophatic theology?

It's exactly what TamaraLynne was doing when you told her to stop. More often than not, we can only refer to a (Spiritual) point via what it is not. And G-d also communicates to us this way.

Wishing someone else to stop this is controlling behavior, and is not healthy.

TamaraLynne · Mar 18, 2012

I'm so sorry

It is just that when I was asking God what it meant to pick up our cross....and I was going through the scriptures.

Well lets say that it just did not feel like I knew all I was to know about picking up our cross because Jesus let others know that burdens should be lifted but preachers today act like burdens are what we carry...they refer that to picking up our cross.

So when I looked at the scripture of the rich man I noticed that people back then carried a cross. it was punishment for being a criminal or sinner. I was very surprised at the fact Jesus told the rich man to pick up the cross...everything not only fell into place as far as understanding...

I was so excited for years trying to tell others what I had seen in scripture.

Many have been told for years by others that it is in reference to money...I thought maybe some would see what I see.

I have almost given up saying anything but I find that people really don't argue about what I saw but they still hang on to what they were told.

So I have been thinking maybe I should not say anything but still I feel passionate about what I was shown.

I'm sorry if I caused discomfort or irratation. I beg forgiveness. I also ask that no one fights over what I say or don't say. I'm feeling bad because I care about you all. I don't want strife caused by my actions...

Please...

MattRose · Mar 20, 2012

The Rich and the Kingdom of God

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?
17 Why do you ask me about what is good? Jesus replied. There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.
18 Which ones? he inquired.
Jesus replied, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,[c] and love your neighbor as yourself.[d]
20 All these I have kept, the young man said. What do I still lack?
21 Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
27 Peter answered him, We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us? 28 Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Look at it context above. Why can't the scripture mean what it says? When I was young and it was taught in church, it was straightforward- Someone who considers wealth to be a main focus in their life isn't going to heaven. Made perfect sense back then and the scripture hasn't changed. What has changed is that many people today think they can chase wealth and still be Christians. They're going to hell, but they can't accept the fact. Sorry, them's the breaks.

The really weird part is how the rich love to hear that the "eye of the needle" is actually a small opening in a city wall. So that would mean that Jesus said that it's easier for a camel to fit through a rather smallish camel-sized opening, than for a rich man to get into heaven. That would make the parable pretty lame. I guess Jesus just had an off day? Here's a good link that exposes the lengths that the rich will go to have their cake* and eat it too.
The camel and the eye of the needle, Hebrew NT Application - Biblical Hebrew

* The word "cake" as it's used here is actually an small opening in a town wall...yada, yada, yada. You get my point.

LLWHA · Mar 20, 2012

BruceDLimber said:
Oh, REALLY?

I would LOVE to have enough added wealth to kill off our last remaining mortgage, which would greatly increase our options and flexibility as well as our nominal wealth! Not to mention our happiness.

Bruce

God forbids great wealth even the king was to not have lots of gold and silver or lots of horses.

The kings nation could be very rich and was suppose to be wealthy showing God blessing. Today the u.s. is the most enslaved (debt) nation in the history of this world. This comes from letting satan's children run wild and the people not knowing right from wrong.

Usury is forbidden to be used against followers of God. Today we are all being made slaves by rich people (sons of lucifer) that enslave our nations and people with fake money and usury.

Why are not these criminals taken into the courts and punished for their crimes against humanity? Well they are so rich with their funny money scams that they own the bloodsuckers (poli= many, ticks=bloodsuckers) politicks system. The judges and lawyers are all in on the lies, fraud and theft of the people and nations.

A man was allowed to make as much gold and silver as he wanted but at the year of jubilee most of this wealth was to be divided among the people. A loan was to be at no interest and forgiven in the seventh year. No 30 year death grips (mortgages) are allowed.

I guess you can see what happened after the priest, (forbidden) class got people to toss out the Old Testament but the part that gives them their 10% of your slave wages.

Satan rules people suffer.

LLWHA · Mar 20, 2012

TamaraLynne said:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3760662/
This is the link about picking up our cross...

Here is another link that talks a bit about it but more of me applying scripture in a time in my life where I had troubles coming at me from everywhere...wow just reading this link took me back in time. I really was going through alot in life that I did not mention in this link...seems like forever ago

http://www.christianforums.com/t4597528/

You seem very wise.

[SIZE=+3]"Paul said, "It is NOT I That Lives"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]It is not "[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]" that lives but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:20). It is not [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Self[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]"[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] that lives but "Christ" lives in me. It is not "Self" that lives but "The Anointed One" - the One whose head/mind is anointed with the "Oil of Understanding" - the oil that lubricates the "seized-up" mind and gets it working again, understanding the [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]TRUTH[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] or [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]WORD[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] of God. It was, or is, "seized-up" because "Self" was, or is, jamming-up the works and blocking the channel through which the Holy Spirit can flow to "[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]lead you into all righteousness[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]" and wash you clean from inside, as it flows through you and then your "[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]cup overflows[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]" to others, to wash them clean with the [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]TRUTH[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] and the Light of understanding, that the now "working mind" receives in a Life united with God, its supply of understanding; oil and Light. Then the Light of understanding with its "[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]shield of faith[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]" (Ephesians 6) effortlessly and painlessly conquers the fear and darkness of ignorance (given by Satan and maintained by believing his lies) that lives in you. God thereby teaching you, from within ("in-tuition"), [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]to be like Him[/SIZE][SIZE=+1], so that you need no man to teach you (1 John 2:27) because [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]his[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] "Self" will get in [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]your[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] way.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Matthew[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] 5:48 Be [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]ye[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] therefore perfect, even as your Father Which is in heaven [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]IS[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] perfect." J.A Hill[/SIZE]

Tobias · Mar 20, 2012

Wealth is relative. When Jesus was talking about a "rich man" not being able to enter heaven, how rich was rich? I think by their standards most all of us would be considered rich. No amount of money back then could buy (or rent) a house with hot and cold running water, flushable toilets, or air conditioning. Not to mention electric lights and appliances! What He was talking about had to have been the attachment to money.

Either that, or perhaps the fact that there were hundreds of extremely poor people dying of starvation in the streets. For someone to be rich and fat means that they did so at the expense of the lives of those outside their gates. Every day they would have to walk past these people as they slowly starved to death, refusing to offer them aide. And anybody with such a cold callous attitude toward other people cannot possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

hikersong · Mar 20, 2012

razeontherock said:
It's exactly what TamaraLynne was doing when you told her to stop. More often than not, we can only refer to a (Spiritual) point via what it is not. And G-d also communicates to us this way.

I didn't tell her to stop, though nor did I get the impression that she was particularly trying to say something by not saying something. I got the impression that she had been criticised before and that that had made her reluctant to speak. I tried to encourage to say what she thought in my own clumsy way.

For the record here is what I said:

You've written three posts saying what it's not about Tamara. Are you just trying to build up courage to give your own opinion on it. The worst that can happen is that people will disagree with you.

You can make the most simple thing look devious and complicated.

Wishing someone else to stop this is controlling behavior, and is not healthy.

If you can find anywhere where I've told people to stop believing what they believe I'll put Ray Is God as my signature. I only ever ask people to stop telling others that what God appears to have said to them should be gospel truth for everyone else. And that WASN'T what I was doing with TamaraLynne anyway.

You on the other hand.....

ps. TamaraLynne, I apologise for causing you to get dragged into our little childish exchange. It's really nothing to do with anything you did or didn't say. I'm sorry.

razeontherock · Mar 20, 2012

hikersong said:
If you can find anywhere where I've told people to stop believing what they believe I'll put Ray Is God as my signature. I only ever ask people to stop telling others that what God appears to have said to them should be gospel truth for everyone else. And that WASN'T what I was doing with TamaraLynne anyway.

You on the other hand ...

Lately you've "attached" an awful lot of things to both what I've said, and me; things that just aren't there. i don't know if it's projection at work or what, but it has nothing to do with me. Case in point here is what i actually said, and it's a a stark contrast from your perception:

razeontherock said:
I would tell you to stop pretending apophatic theology has no value and is not the primary way G-d communicates - except I'm not a control freak. I will realize you can do that until your dying breath if you so choose, and I will merely point out it's not a good idea.

Surely you must be able to recognize how different this is from the picture you paint?

hikersong said:
And, umm, you say you're not a control freak, yet you diss anyone who disagrees with you about bible texts.

This is absolutely untrue, but there is such a thing as wrong.

hikersong said:
I'm not trying to stop you thinking whatever you want to think...but I would like you to stop telling everyone else that they shouldn't criticise your thinking or else

I have never said such a thing. You really need to own all these things

hikersong said:
You probably don't believe me, but I like to read your posts...except when you're butchering and manipulating the bible text to some, yet to be identified, but undoubtedly deeply spiritual end.

Perhaps this is the bottom line: you have already decided to disagree with the Bible, and would rather not be confronted with its relevance.

BruceDLimber · Mar 20, 2012

LLWHA said:
God forbids great wealth even the king was to not have lots of gold and silver or lots of horses.

I said nothing whatever about "great" wealth! I spoke only of having enough to pay off my mortgage, which money would obviously go to someone else!

LLWHA said:
Satan rules; people suffer.

God being One, Supreme, and without rival or equal, there is no "devil" out there trying to "get us."

And satan is merely a reference to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

Peace,

Bruce

mindfulness · Mar 20, 2012

There are two schools of thought with Christianity on wealth:

The first says that God is against rich people and having money. The NT is exclusively cited and this view completely contrasts the lifestyles of North American and Western European Christianity. They take Jesus' indictments against the rich very seriously, but are often hypocritical about wealth seeing as how they often do not live in abject poverty.

The second teaches that God is the author of wealth and abundance and wealth is a sign of blessing, faith, hard work, etc. This view exalts the OT scriptures given to the Jews and applies God's promises to today, not just ancient Israel. These Christians are often capitalistic, somewhat materialistic and can at times, even be greedy. They say wealth is a part of the gospel. Usually more of the charismatic, health and wealth gospel.

Almost impossible for rich to enter heaven?

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