Alleged Contradictions

[humblemuslim]

I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss alleged contradictions of ANY Holy Scripture. I'll warn you ahead of time that I will most likely keep my comments strictly relating to the Qur'an and Bible, since these are the two Scriptures I have personally read and know the most about with regard to Scriptures as a whole.



First off lets try to follow a few "Friendly" rules just for the sake of order:

1. Please do not copy/paste a list of hundreds of alleged contradictions and expect someone to go through the entire list and answer them all. One alleged contradiction at a time please. It is not only rude but seriously unkind to overwhelm people with material you personally didn't spend any time composing. So this rule is somewhat of a double rule as noted:
a. Please no copy/paste UNLESS ENTIRELY NECESSARY (Which is should not be very often)
b. Please only one alleged contradiction at a time. If you question isn't answered after a long period of time because it was overlooked just refer attention to it

2. Never state something is "Clearly a contradiction". Lets try to be open minded here. Everything is an alleged contradiction until proven otherwise.

3. This thread is about alleged contradictions of Scripture ONLY. Please don't diverge the topic to authenticity or other unrelated topics.

Thank you in advance for following the rules



Ok with all this stated I'd like to pose my first question on an alleged contradiction. This is an external contradiction:


Alleged External Contradiction #1


The Bible states:

Kings I 7:23
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other; it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about

and

Chronicles II 4:2
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass ,and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.


If you calculate Pi (The mathetical number that is usually is simplified to 3.14 in simply calcuations, although it is an irrational number that doesn't repeat itself nor does it terminate) using the equation for PI (Assuming the Bible is talking about a circular object, which is a safe assumption as it states it is "Round all about" and "Round in compass"):

Pi = Circumference divided by diameter

According to these verses the circumference is 30 Cubits and the diameter is 10 cubits.

Do the math ----- 30/10 = 3....

Why does the Bible have this circle with a Pi value of 3?


Explainations I have received before and have refutted:

1. God was just giving an approximate value and roudned it off.

Response to this: Ok, well if this is the the case why isn't the circumference 31 Cubits? At least Pi would have been 3.1 which is far closer to the true value of Pi and more accurate. Rounding is one thing, but obviously there seems to be room for improvement on the value of Pi here.

2. The thickness of the object isn't accounted for

Response to this: Really? How do you know. The terminology the Bible uses here makes no indication that the thickness isn't accounted for. Infact saying so is almost silly. It clearly says "From Brim to Brim" And then gives us the distance all the way around the object. Unless men measured this object, not realizing that Pi is infact 3.14.....(So on), then it makes no sense for the value of Pi to be skewed based on the thickness of the object.



I look forward to responses. And also I look forward to other alleged contradictions (From any Scripture)

Thanks, peace

 

[Hydra009]

1. God was just giving an approximate value and rounded it off.

IMO, the more likely explaination is that the people of those times did not yet know the exact value of pi and/or did not have the tools necessary to make more precise measurements than three.

So, it is entirely possible to make the claim that the work was written by fallible people inspired by God, but impossible to claim that the work is the direct word of God because it pi does not equal 3 and God does not lie.

 

[AvgJoe]

I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss alleged contradictions of ANY Holy Scripture. I'll warn you ahead of time that I will most likely keep my comments strictly relating to the Qur'an and Bible, since these are the two Scriptures I have personally read and know the most about with regard to Scriptures as a whole.



First off lets try to follow a few "Friendly" rules just for the sake of order:

1. Please do not copy/paste a list of hundreds of alleged contradictions and expect someone to go through the entire list and answer them all. One alleged contradiction at a time please. It is not only rude but seriously unkind to overwhelm people with material you personally didn't spend any time composing. So this rule is somewhat of a double rule as noted:
a. Please no copy/paste UNLESS ENTIRELY NECESSARY (Which is should not be very often)
b. Please only one alleged contradiction at a time. If you question isn't answered after a long period of time because it was overlooked just refer attention to it

2. Never state something is "Clearly a contradiction". Lets try to be open minded here. Everything is an alleged contradiction until proven otherwise.

3. This thread is about alleged contradictions of Scripture ONLY. Please don't diverge the topic to authenticity or other unrelated topics.

Thank you in advance for following the rules



Ok with all this stated I'd like to pose my first question on an alleged contradiction. This is an external contradiction:


Alleged External Contradiction #1


The Bible states:

Kings I 7:23
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other; it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about

and

Chronicles II 4:2
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass ,and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.


If you calculate Pi (The mathetical number that is usually is simplified to 3.14 in simply calcuations, although it is an irrational number that doesn't repeat itself nor does it terminate) using the equation for PI (Assuming the Bible is talking about a circular object, which is a safe assumption as it states it is "Round all about" and "Round in compass"):

Pi = Circumference divided by diameter

According to these verses the circumference is 30 Cubits and the diameter is 10 cubits.

Do the math ----- 30/10 = 3....

Why does the Bible have this circle with a Pi value of 3?


Explainations I have received before and have refutted:

1. God was just giving an approximate value and roudned it off.

Response to this: Ok, well if this is the the case why isn't the circumference 31 Cubits? At least Pi would have been 3.1 which is far closer to the true value of Pi and more accurate. Rounding is one thing, but obviously there seems to be room for improvement on the value of Pi here.

2. The thickness of the object isn't accounted for

Response to this: Really? How do you know. The terminology the Bible uses here makes no indication that the thickness isn't accounted for. Infact saying so is almost silly. It clearly says "From Brim to Brim" And then gives us the distance all the way around the object. Unless men measured this object, not realizing that Pi is infact 3.14.....(So on), then it makes no sense for the value of Pi to be skewed based on the thickness of the object.



I look forward to responses. And also I look forward to other alleged contradictions (From any Scripture)

Thanks, peace

I just read an article about this alleged contradiction. Since you do not want any copy & paste, I'll leave a link to the article.

http://www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=764

Definition of cubit: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cubit

 

[Bevlina]

Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 years (Sura 70:4)?

Observe how similar 32:5 and 70:4 are worded (in English - I don't know the Arabic) "ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is [fifty] thousand years [of your reckoning]." Maybe it originally was "fifty thousand" in both and "fifty" dropped out in one place? A corrupted manuscript? Or does God just not know how to relate the length his days to human years?

 

[humblemuslim]

I just read an article about this alleged contradiction. Since you do not want any copy & paste, I'll leave a link to the article.

http://www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic...=244&ItemID=764

Definition of cubit: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cubit

Thanks for the sources. I'll read them shortly and respond (Getting alittle late )
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cubit

 

[humblemuslim]

Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 years (Sura 70:4)?

Observe how similar 32:5 and 70:4 are worded (in English - I don't know the Arabic) "ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is [fifty] thousand years [of your reckoning]." Maybe it originally was "fifty thousand" in both and "fifty" dropped out in one place? A corrupted manuscript? Or does God just not know how to relate the length his days to human years?

First let me cite all the verses in question (Highlighting key portions):

022.047
YUSUFALI: Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
PICKTHAL: And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.
SHAKIR: And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number.

032.005
YUSUFALI: He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
PICKTHAL: He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.
SHAKIR: He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.

070.004
YUSUFALI: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
PICKTHAL: (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
SHAKIR: To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.


The proposed alleged contradiction is the number of years a day is: 1000 or 50000?

First I'll pose my short and sweet explaination, then I'll refer you to a website that refers to the exact question you seemed to have copied from some place else.

I have seen three different views on clearing this up, I'll just go ahead and mention them all:


1. In the two verses referring to 1000 years they both have to do with reckoning. In the 50,000 years it deals with measure.

Reckon - To count or compute
Measure- Dimensions, quantity, or capacity as ascertained by comparison with a standard.

The 1000 year verses are referring to the time you, as human, would count under the circumstances mentioned in the verses. The 50,000 years is a measure of time, rather than a count of time. This measure of time is a quantity/dimension/capacity made certain by a comparison with a standard (And this standard could be other than what humans have set forth as the standard.) Infact the verse seems to imply that the 50,000 years are judged by another standard, as it clearly never mentions what humans "Reckon" (i.e. Count).


2. Verses 22:47 32:5 have to do with human perception of the time, and 70:4 has to do with angel perception of the time. In order words, angels experience time differently from humans. (Infact this 2nd seperate explaination could even be tied into the 1st explaination)

3. To some up this explaination...Basically all three verses are referring to different events and the time periods are not related (Even the two verses referring to 1000 years are referring to two different things)

This explaination is explained in detail at this website:

http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=4

Which is ironic...this website was asked the same question you asked verbatim



Anyways this should clear up this alleged contradiction, revealing it as not a contradiction at all

 

[humblemuslim]

I read one article and have something to note:

It should be noted that Biblical numbers are typically declared as whole numbers and not fractions and never decimals. The diameter of the basin was described as "ten cubits from the one brim to the other:" This is an inside measure. Remember, the brim was constructed like a cup. The basin "was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies:" Also take note that a cup flares out at the top. The circumference of this basin was an outside measurement. This simple fact seems to have escaped the skeptics. Remember, the Bible typically deals in whole numbers, meaning fractions and decimals are rounded off to the nearest whole number. A cubit, according to the Thompson Chain Reference Bible, measures 21.888 inches. Ten cubits, which was the diameter in question, would equal 218.88 inches. Now subtract eight inches for the brim. The measurement now equals 210.88 inches which is 9.6 cubits. Now take 210.88 inches and multiply it by "Pi," which is 3.14, and you'll have 662.16 inches. When you convert that number into cubits you will have a circumference of 30.25 cubits, which is properly rounded to 30 cubits, just as the scriptures state.

The diameter is an inside measure (i.e. the diameter should according to the source include the hand breadth thickness) , so why in the world is this source SUBTRACTING the hand breadth????

If the diameter is an inside measure, and the circumference an outside measure, then naturally we would want the TOTAL diameter therefore (If I stay in agreement with the source on what a cubit is in inches) the diameter would be 10 cubits times 21.888 inches plus 8 inches (Supposedly a hand breadth) which ends up being 226.88 Inches. The circumference is stated as 30 cubits, multiply it by 21.888 and you get 656.64 Inches. Now do the math from here and you get:
Pi = 2.8942172073342736248236953455571
(This is worse than before...)

By this a circumference of 33 Cubits would have been ideal as it yields a Pi value of:

Pi = 3.1836389280677009873060648801128

Or even 32 Cubits circumference:

Pi = 3.0871650211565585331452750352609


Or am I misunderstanding something here I'm going to need some further clarification, because I doubt the source would have made such a mistake, espeically after putting down skeptics in such a bold manner. Yet it is a possible they made a mistake. I'll just await for further clarifaction.

 

[humblemuslim]

Definition of cubit: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cubit

The defintion seems alittle vague, especially in a case like this which needs specific details.

Cubit - An ancient unit of linear measure, originally equal to the length of the forearm from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow, or about 17 to 22 inches (43 to 56 centimeters).


Your source used 21.888 as a cubit length. Is there any specific justification for this choice? Is this choice any better than if I chose say 17.888? or 19.342? or 20.000? etc. because the significant number of figures in the number that represents a cubit is very important to the calculation of the value of Pi

 

[humblemuslim]

NOTE:

Here is the defintion of the other "measurement"


Handbreadth -
A linear measurement approximating the width of the palm of the hand, from 2 [size=-1]1[/size]/[size=-1]2[/size] to 4 inches (6.25 to 10 centimeters). http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=handbreadth

So that's where the 8 came from (Although again this 8 isn't a solid number). They assumed the handbreadth was 4 Inches and multiplied it by two to subtract from the diameter (Which I still dont follow this logic, as I feel this amount should be added to the 10 cubits, not subtracted). So I pose again why 8 Inches? Is 5 a less valid guess?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss alleged contradictions of ANY Holy Scripture.

It is not so much the contradictions in the holy books but rather the reconciliation dances that apologists tend to perform that I find off-putting.

 

[morningstar2651]

There are contradictions in the Bible and in the Quran. I've heard of many more in the Bible.

This makes sense to anyone who has heard the testimony of various witnesses to a crime. Each individual sees something from another perspective and remembers events differently.

 

[humblemuslim]

It is not so much the contradictions in the holy books but rather the reconciliation dances that apologists tend to perform that I find off-putting.

Well I pose the following:

When is it safe to say there is a contradiction?

A. Simply because that's how you read and understood it

B. After some research that supports what you read and your understanding

C. After a dicussion on it with many other people and finding out they have no sound rebuttle to your understanding of the verse

D. Never, someone can always make something up


Also when has a defense of a verse gone too far? When has someone crossed the line between reasonable and unreasonable defense? When has a person over-extended their interpertation into mere baseless opinion?


But honestly there are alleged contradictions that are anything but contradictions. In part you can blame translations and in some cases the wording may throw some people off, espeically people in search of error. But there are sound justifications out there and that is exactly why I label them "alleged"

 

[humblemuslim]

There are contradictions in the Bible and in the Quran. I've heard of many more in the Bible.

This makes sense to anyone who has heard the testimony of various witnesses to a crime. Each individual sees something from another perspective and remembers events differently.

Could you please cite what you personally feel to be a contradiction from both the Bible and Qur'an. Just cite one, after we discuss this one (From Each), you may present another. And honestly pick one which you feel is the most clear contradiction.

 

[Green Man]

I thought it would be worthwhile to discuss alleged contradictions of ANY Holy Scripture. I'll warn you ahead of time that I will most likely keep my comments strictly relating to the Qur'an and Bible, since these are the two Scriptures I have personally read and know the most about with regard to Scriptures as a whole.



First off lets try to follow a few "Friendly" rules just for the sake of order:

1. Please do not copy/paste a list of hundreds of alleged contradictions and expect someone to go through the entire list and answer them all. One alleged contradiction at a time please. It is not only rude but seriously unkind to overwhelm people with material you personally didn't spend any time composing. So this rule is somewhat of a double rule as noted:
a. Please no copy/paste UNLESS ENTIRELY NECESSARY (Which is should not be very often)
b. Please only one alleged contradiction at a time. If you question isn't answered after a long period of time because it was overlooked just refer attention to it

2. Never state something is "Clearly a contradiction". Lets try to be open minded here. Everything is an alleged contradiction until proven otherwise.

3. This thread is about alleged contradictions of Scripture ONLY. Please don't diverge the topic to authenticity or other unrelated topics.

Thank you in advance for following the rules



Ok with all this stated I'd like to pose my first question on an alleged contradiction. This is an external contradiction:


Alleged External Contradiction #1


The Bible states:

Kings I 7:23
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other; it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about

and

Chronicles II 4:2
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass ,and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.


If you calculate Pi (The mathetical number that is usually is simplified to 3.14 in simply calcuations, although it is an irrational number that doesn't repeat itself nor does it terminate) using the equation for PI (Assuming the Bible is talking about a circular object, which is a safe assumption as it states it is "Round all about" and "Round in compass"):

Pi = Circumference divided by diameter

According to these verses the circumference is 30 Cubits and the diameter is 10 cubits.

Do the math ----- 30/10 = 3....

Why does the Bible have this circle with a Pi value of 3?


Explainations I have received before and have refutted:

1. God was just giving an approximate value and roudned it off.

Response to this: Ok, well if this is the the case why isn't the circumference 31 Cubits? At least Pi would have been 3.1 which is far closer to the true value of Pi and more accurate. Rounding is one thing, but obviously there seems to be room for improvement on the value of Pi here.

2. The thickness of the object isn't accounted for

Response to this: Really? How do you know. The terminology the Bible uses here makes no indication that the thickness isn't accounted for. Infact saying so is almost silly. It clearly says "From Brim to Brim" And then gives us the distance all the way around the object. Unless men measured this object, not realizing that Pi is infact 3.14.....(So on), then it makes no sense for the value of Pi to be skewed based on the thickness of the object.



I look forward to responses. And also I look forward to other alleged contradictions (From any Scripture)

Thanks, peace

It is very possible none of it ever happened to start with.

 

[humblemuslim]

After looking at this Pi problem for sometime I thought I'd make a chart listing all possible situations (Within Reason):

Cubit - 17 to 22 inches

Handbreadth - 2 [size=-1]1[/size]/[size=-1]2[/size] to 4 inches

(All Measurements will be in inches until Pi is finally calculated)

All Cases are where the Diamter is measured from inner brim to inner brim and circumference is the outter circumference:

First I went through all Whole Number Possiblities:

Equation used in all instances: (30*Cubit conversion factor)/(10*Cubit conversion factor + 2HandBreadth)

Assuming Cubit = 17 ; HandBreadth = 3

Pi = 2.8977272727272727272727272727273

Assuming Cubit = 18 ; HandBreadth = 3

Pi = 2.9032258064516129032258064516129

Assuming Cubit = 19 ; HandBreadth = 3

Pi = 2.9081632653061224489795918367347

Assuming Cubit = 20 ; HandBreadth = 3

Pi = 2.912621359223300970873786407767

Assuming Cubit = 21 ; HandBreadth = 3

Pi = 2.9166666666666666666666666666667

Assuming Cubit = 22 ; HandBreadth = 3

Pi = 2.9203539823008849557522123893805

----------------------------------------------------

Assuming Cubit = 17 ; HandBreadth = 4

Pi = 2.8651685393258426966292134831461

Assuming Cubit = 18 ; HandBreadth = 4

Pi = 2.8723404255319148936170212765957

Assuming Cubit = 19 ; HandBreadth = 4

Pi = 2.8787878787878787878787878787879

Assuming Cubit = 20 ; HandBreadth = 4

Pi = 2.8846153846153846153846153846154

Assuming Cubit = 21 ; HandBreadth = 4

Pi = 2.889908256880733944954128440367

Assuming Cubit = 22 ; HandBreadth = 4

Pi = 2.8947368421052631578947368421053

(Sub-Conclusion: Whole Number values in the case mentioned above yield horrible values of Pi. None even reach 3. Now non-whole number case must be examined)

This Sub-Conclusion is actually not very surprising because of the low number of significant figures.

(Cases relating to a constant value of 17 Cubits with varying Handbreathen)


HB = Handbreathen (Since this will be very long I'm using this as a simplification)

HB = 2.5 (Lowest value possible)

Pi = 2.9142857142857142857142857142857

HB = 2.6

Pi = 2.9109589041095890410958904109589

HB = 2.7

Pi = 2.9076396807297605473204104903079

HB = 2.8

Pi = 2.9043280182232346241457858769932

HB = 2.9

Pi = 2.9010238907849829351535836177474

HB = 3.0

Pi = 2.8977272727272727272727272727273

HB = 3.1

Pi = 2.8944381384790011350737797956867

HB = 3.2

Pi = 2.8911564625850340136054421768707

HB = 3.3

Pi = 2.8878822197055492638731596828992

HB = 3.4

Pi = 2.8846153846153846153846153846154

HB = 3.5

Pi = 2.8813559322033898305084745762712

HB = 3.6

Pi = 2.8781038374717832957110609480813

HB = 3.7

Pi = 2.8748590755355129650507328072153

HB = 3.8

Pi = 2.8716216216216216216216216216216

HB = 3.9

Pi = 2.8683914510686164229471316085489

HB = 4.0 (Highest Value Possible)

Pi = 2.8651685393258426966292134831461


(Sub-Conclusion: Notice a pattern? As HandBreadth increased Pi value slowly decreases. Therefore, nothing matters except the lowest value of Handbreadth possible which is 2.5, and it still yields a horrible value of Pi. Therefore the Cubit conversion: 1 Cubit = 17 Inches must be invalid to this verse, unless the verse gives a wrong Pi value)



This Sub-conclusion is not surprising at all. Why? Look at the formual that I used the entire way through:

Circumference(Constant Value) Divided by Diameter (As Handbreadth increases, so does Diameter, therefore Pi keeps getting smaller and smaller. Therefore in all further analysis I'll only take the lowest HeadBreadth which yields a number closest to Pi. This post will be continued...

 

[humblemuslim]

(Continued)

(Cases relating to a constant value of 18 Cubits with varying Handbreathen)

HB = 2.5

Pi = 2.9189189189189189189189189189189

There is no need to go any further based on the subconclusion mentioned in the first post of this list. Pi can only decreased from this value as Handbreadth increases


(Cases relating to a constant value of 19 Cubits with varying Handbreathen)

HB = 2.5

Pi = 2.9230769230769230769230769230769

No need to go any further, same explaination as above.


(Cases relating to a constant value of 20 Cubits with varying Handbreathen)

HB = 2.5

Pi = 2.9268292682926829268292682926829

No need to go any further, same explaination as above.
(Cases relating to a constant value of 21 Cubits with varying Handbreathen)

HB = 2.5

Pi = 2.9302325581395348837209302325581

No need to go any further, same explaination as above.
(Cases relating to a constant value of 22 Cubits with varying Handbreathen)

HB = 2.5

Pi = 2.9333333333333333333333333333333

No need to go any further, same explaination as above.


(Sub-Conclusion: All Whole-Number constant values of Cubit-Conversions yield horrible Pi values no matter what the Handbreadth is within the accepted range. Also notice that as the Cubit converison Increases, Pi Increases. Therefore only the maximum converison is important. Since the maximum converison doesn't reach even 3, not to mention the true value of Pi, this case isn't giving a valid value of Pi.)

Again this shouldn't be surprising. The formula this time requires the denominator be constant with an increasoing numerator, therefore the value will slow increase. But it doesn't increase fast enough and the maximum converision factor is unable to reach a true value of Pi

To be Continued...

 

[Iron Lion]

errrrm ok

 

[Hydra009]

Way too much time on your hands.

 

[humblemuslim]

Way too much time on your hands.

All this only took no more than 30 mins. (Maximum) I haven't been timing myself, but it didn't take all that much time. It isn't as if I spent hours on end doing this.

 

[humblemuslim]

I am going to offer the alternative situation for this whole Pi deal in abit and also pose questions as to how plausible this situation is. In the mean time I am still awaiting further alleged contradictions to be posted. Any scripture you please to choose, post an alleged contradiction.


I'm also waiting for morningstar2651 to list the specifics she was referring to. No hurry, plus I'd like to see what you are referring to.


Thanks

Peace