all those underage go to heaven?

[Sadalmelik]

so i was thinking about the different views concerning what christians believe as to what the truth is regarding babies, kids, or anyone under the age of accountability, etc...if all those go to heaven, so as to say basically get a free pass....


how does this add up to the fact that some of these underage, when they had grown up, had they not died, and matured, would have rejected God and thus not recvd eternal life....hence would not have been saved....therefore, is God thwarting the persons ultimate will by taking them to heaven, despite what they would have done should theyve been allowed to live..

another words, does one honestly believe that everyone who has ever died, under the age of accountabilitly would have decided for Christ,,,(and please dont parse words here), everyone knows who im talking about when i say saved and unsaved...) i think if one were to believe that it would be one of the biggest stretches i have ever seen.

or does this idea of throwing babies, kids, and children into hell just become to disturbing and uncomfortable for us, therefore we make up this doctrine to help us, for some of us, it is much easier to picture an adult burning for eternity than it is for us to picture a child in this state.....and being of the view of annihilation, i will not include myself in this category, because i feel it just as bad to see an adult in this state of eternal torment.

so heres reason i ask, one i dont really know what the answer is, second, i dont subscribe to the idea of an eternal hell, where one is tormented forever, so i therefore would not have much of a problem with this idea, as say one who believes in the eternal hell scenario....i dont have an opinion one way or the other on whether children could go to hell or not...never really thought about it....but for those, who i believe like most, dont believe that any baby, child, etc goes to hell, i am interested particularly from those whose idea of eternal torment/neverending hell is, especially in regards to the underage of accountability fate is....

and while i realize this may make some uncomfortable, it reaally would need to be addressed, and not just dismissed....let me hear ones thought on such


and you cannot conclude that since the child had not grown physically spiritually, then no one knows what they would have decided to do, God knows the answer to that question, so dont use that as an exit out, wont work....further, many use this as a defense mode for those that question the salvation of the man on this island scenario, whose never heard of Jesus, how can he be sent to hell? one would ask, and one of the more popular ideas is that God would know what that person would have decided if he/she was to have heard about Jesus, and the word of God before they died, so lets not even go that route i wish not to debate that aspect.

 

[ChristianT]

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4220349/k.5C9C/Do_Babies_Go_to_Hell.htm

Summary:
"In summary, I think we can conclude the following:

First, that there is some period of grace afforded the young before they have developed an understanding to fully comprehend the gospel message and its implications for their lives.

Second, there seems to be good scriptural support that all infants, like David's little son, go immediately, in their innocence, into the arms of the Lord.

Third, that the likely range of such an age of "accountability " may occur around the time of puberty.

Fourth, that we are not saying children younger than this "accountability age" commit no sin (as sinful tendencies and acts occur quite early in children), and because of their fallen nature, they do these things spontaneously, things which they have definitely NOT learned from their parents or their friends). What we are saying is that up to the point when they reach clear understanding, they do not come under the judgment of the Law."

 

[tturt]

The Holy Spirit can communicate with the man on the island.

 

[Sadalmelik]

thanx but neither one of you addressed the point i made about the fact that i would logically believe not all of the underage of acct. would have chosen to accept Christ and walk in faith, therefore would not have recvd the gift of eternal life....so if one to assume that, then mans ultimate will would be being thwarted if they auto went to heaven, just because they died before the age of accountability.

that was the point of the post, not necessarily if you believe children go to heaven,,,,,in context of my post, i guess im already assuming they do, and that also seems to be the consensus many christians believe, as i have never seen or heard anyone say kids go to hell....so how do you reconcile this concept with the fact that God is omniscient, which i believe He is....therefore would know that not all of the children, when they grew up, if had been allowed, would have been saved....

that is the point of the question....sorry if it got lost....this post is not about the man on the island, i only brought that up as a point of ref...please reread and advise if possible.

 

[tturt]

If I understand your posts, Scripture show His perspective of kids such as Mark 10:13-16.

My heart really goes out to parents who have lost a child. When kids are born, many parents are filled with love, hope, and dreams for them.

Yes, Yahweh knows what decision they would make when they're adults. But just like He has made provisions for those in the OT (II Kings 2:11), He has provided for those who are mentally challenged, children, etc. He has decided for some children to be with Him at that point of their lives, it's His decision, His timing, His purposes.

We need to pray for those who have lost a loved one especially a child.

 

[Sadalmelik]

If I understand your posts, Scripture show His perspective of kids such as Mark 10:13-16.

My heart really goes out to parents who have lost a child. When kids are born, many parents are filled with love, hope, and dreams for them.

Yes, Yahweh knows what decision they would make when they're adults. But just like He has made provisions for those in the OT (II Kings 2:11), He has provided for those who are mentally challenged, children, etc. He has decided for some children to be with Him at that point of their lives, it's His decision, His timing, His purposes.

We need to pray for those who have lost a loved one especially a child.
(orig posted by tturt)




i agree this is a sensitive subject, and i in no way mean to offend anyone by it, or cause hurt to anyone, that is certainly not my intention here, but just because it is a sensitive subject, does not mean it should not be addressed and discussed, i have presented my arguement, and have not recvd one response which addresses the pertinent question....which i have stated repeatedly....every response so far has skirted the issue, without even addressing it...while i realize it is difficult, i will assume by the lack of responses so far, and the ones that have, have not answered the question....that there is no logical conclusion to this apparent discrepency

i have never heard this question asked before, nor ever seen it addressed in anyway. anywhere, ..it is something out of my own mind, i did not read it anywhere...it is simply a question that i have....which apparently has no answer....

the only logical answers would be.....either you dont believe all children go to heaven

or, you dont believe God to be omniscient

or, you believe God thwarts the ultimate will of that person


i cannot reconcile it any other way....if there is another way of looking at it, then please enlighten me...thats what i am asking...

 

[Sadalmelik]

Summary:
"In summary, I think we can conclude the following:

First, that there is some period of grace afforded the young before they have developed an understanding to fully comprehend the gospel message and its implications for their lives.

Second, there seems to be good scriptural support that all infants, like David's little son, go immediately, in their innocence, into the arms of the Lord.

Third, that the likely range of such an age of "accountability " may occur around the time of puberty.

Fourth, that we are not saying children younger than this "accountability age" commit no sin (as sinful tendencies and acts occur quite early in children), and because of their fallen nature, they do these things spontaneously, things which they have definitely NOT learned from their parents or their friends). What we are saying is that up to the point when they reach clear understanding, they do not come under the judgment of the Law." (orig posted by ChristianT)






this does not answer the question....the question once again is.....if all children(those under the age of accountability, regardless of whether they are babies, infants, toddlers, children, pubescent, teens, doesnt matter), go to heaven, then one has to assume that all of them are getting a free pass to heaven, cause it is illogical, to think that, all of them, had they been allowed to grow up, would have made the decision to accept Christ.....some of them could have turned out to be devil worshippers for all we know, so how does the act of sending all children to heaven, not thwart the ultimate will of ones soul? its actually quite simple question....so please dont make it more difficult than it is.


perhaps my question is flawed in reasoning, if so please point that out...but one must believe God to be omniscient, that is part of the definition of God, (by man), so going on that assumption...God would know what would have been truly in the heart of the person had they been allowed to grow into adulthood, so while we wouldnt know that, and even the person (child) wouldnt know what there dicision would have been, God would have....and to say that it doesnt matter what they would have done or thought, i think is saying that God isnt omniscient...which He is.

 

[7angel]

In all Christian religions and not - there are very dark, much ignorance, because - no one preaching the true gospel

Eternal punishment is madness of many religions - even though it is written that we chose hell - not God

Do unto others what you do not want to - it is written in the parable of "the rich man and Lazarus the poor"

 

[jimfish]

If I understand your posts, Scripture show His perspective of kids such as Mark 10:13-16.

....

Jesus was making an analogy, not teaching about those of young age.

I always wonder why people fret or even debate over this issue (I, btw, am the father of a stillborn son so I know, to some degree....). God is a perfect God, perfect in all His ways and all His judgments, so we can simply TRUST HIM LIKE A LITTLE CHILD that He has done the correct thing concerning the eternal destiny of children who've died before accountability.

(Besides, this issue rests to a great deal upon the tenets of Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and we likely mostly all know where debates on that ends: Still unsettled after 2,000 years.)

 

[Svt4Him]

That's why it's hard to deal in hypotheticals. Hell is made for satan and those who chose to follow him through sin. To say that because a child dies before they are accountable, therefore God removes their choice to follow satan doesn't take into account the fact that when they died, they had not chosen to follow satan, so it doesn't really matter. That's like saying that any time someone dies, it removes the ability for them to reject God therefore it's not just.

 

[If Not For Grace]

thanx but neither one of you addressed the point i made about the fact that i would logically believe not all of the underage of acct. would have chosen to accept Christ and walk in faith, therefore would not have recvd the gift of eternal life....

....so how do you reconcile this concept with the fact that God is omniscient, which i believe He is....therefore would know that not all of the children, , if had been allowed, would when they grew uphave been saved....

that is the point of the question....sorry if it got lost....

Try & stay with me and you may have to chew on this a day or 2, cause I'm really oversimplifying here: But in General the theologies are something like:

If you believe in an age of accountability (usually around age 12)your belief is based on the following:

Since they died-there is NO WOULD HAVE BEEN. No-If's are allowed.
God being omniscient knows the lifespan of each of us. Since they were born to die before becoming of age to choose the "default" would be heaven.

Some believe this is based on whether or not the baby was "chistened" by the parents-thus shifting the responsiblity for salvation on the parents until the age of accountablitiy is reached.

IF you do not believe in the age of accountability and hold that "ALL" are born in sin, then as you say some hold with the "would have been" verdict (Usually found among those believing in predestination and or the elect) and others hold that ANY soul not personally dedicated to Christ is hellbound period. (This is one reason abortion is seen by many in this group as particularly heinous in sin.)

As for me personally I believe no one is born w/o God's blessing and no one dies without His permission. I also believe God is Just.

 

[Sadalmelik]

ok well then i guess in your view the question is flawed, thankyou for a response....

 

[Sadalmelik]

is there scripture in the bible pertaining to an age of accountability or something to the effect?

 

[tturt]

In regards to Mark 10:13-16, I believe there are many layers of interpretation for most Scriptures.

btw, it's been discussed previously - several times.

 

[ashout]

its my understanding that Jesus chooses who will be born where to whom. so could not Jesus know before hand who will choose christ, and then make all the baby's who die children who would choose christ?
take into consideration this: God knew that solomons baby would die before an age of acountability, so could he not have chosen a righteous soul to inhabit that baby's body, one that he KNEW that IF he had lived on, he would have chosen Jesus.


thus i say, all the baby's who died and went to heaven would have chosen Jesus had they lived on.

 

[jimfish]

T...To say that because a child dies before they are accountable, therefore God removes their choice to follow satan doesn't take into account the fact that when they died, they had not chosen to follow satan, so it doesn't really matter. That's like saying that any time someone dies, it removes the ability for them to reject God therefore it's not just.

Consider the parable of the tares vs. wheat (Mt. Chap. 13).

 

[1an]

so i was thinking about the different views concerning what christians believe as to what the truth is regarding babies, kids, or anyone under the age of accountability, etc...if all those go to heaven, so as to say basically get a free pass....


how does this add up to the fact that some of these underage, when they had grown up, had they not died, and matured, would have rejected God and thus not recvd eternal life....hence would not have been saved....therefore, is God thwarting the persons ultimate will by taking them to heaven, despite what they would have done should theyve been allowed to live..

another words, does one honestly believe that everyone who has ever died, under the age of accountabilitly would have decided for Christ,,,(and please dont parse words here), everyone knows who im talking about when i say saved and unsaved...) i think if one were to believe that it would be one of the biggest stretches i have ever seen.

or does this idea of throwing babies, kids, and children into hell just become to disturbing and uncomfortable for us, therefore we make up this doctrine to help us, for some of us, it is much easier to picture an adult burning for eternity than it is for us to picture a child in this state.....and being of the view of annihilation, i will not include myself in this category, because i feel it just as bad to see an adult in this state of eternal torment.

so heres reason i ask, one i dont really know what the answer is, second, i dont subscribe to the idea of an eternal hell, where one is tormented forever, so i therefore would not have much of a problem with this idea, as say one who believes in the eternal hell scenario....i dont have an opinion one way or the other on whether children could go to hell or not...never really thought about it....but for those, who i believe like most, dont believe that any baby, child, etc goes to hell, i am interested particularly from those whose idea of eternal torment/neverending hell is, especially in regards to the underage of accountability fate is....

and while i realize this may make some uncomfortable, it reaally would need to be addressed, and not just dismissed....let me hear ones thought on such


and you cannot conclude that since the child had not grown physically spiritually, then no one knows what they would have decided to do, God knows the answer to that question, so dont use that as an exit out, wont work....further, many use this as a defense mode for those that question the salvation of the man on this island scenario, whose never heard of Jesus, how can he be sent to hell? one would ask, and one of the more popular ideas is that God would know what that person would have decided if he/she was to have heard about Jesus, and the word of God before they died, so lets not even go that route i wish not to debate that aspect.

If you can show me a baby that has lied, stolen, murdered and committed adultery then that child wil go to Hell, otherwise No.

Don't forget as well that God looks on the heart and there is many a person who has never heard the Gospel who is pure in heart, the same as many a young child.

The other thing is, does the child do wrong knowingly or does he do it in all innocence and don't forget Jesus said for the little children to come to him.


.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="jimfish, post: 59636865, member: 299391"]Jesus was making an analogy, not teaching about those of young age.

I always wonder why people fret or even debate over this issue (I, btw, am the father of a stillborn son so I know, to some degree....). God is a perfect God, perfect in all His ways and all His judgments, so we can simply TRUST HIM LIKE A LITTLE CHILD that He has done the correct thing concerning the eternal destiny of children who've died before accountability.

(Besides, this issue rests to a great deal upon the tenets of Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and we likely mostly all know where debates on that ends: Still unsettled after 2,000 years.)[/QUOTE
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