All praise to the grumpy God!

[Luke1433]

Hey Candle. Maybe Bocannes doesn't have a problem with what I say because I'm just such a charming wonderful person! lol

Actually, I think all three of us are really pretty close together in what we are saying.

Did you notice that Bocannes said that sometimes God answers with a NO, and sometimes with a WAIT?

The problem comes with the whole idea of what "answered prayer" means. In one way, we could pray to a rock and say that it always answers our prayers (i.e. if we get what we asked for, the rock said yes, and if we don't get what we asked for, the rock either said no or said wait). Even the use of "answered" seems a bit strange to me, when prayer could be things like praise. How does God answer praise? "Thank you for the compliment"? lol

But I think most people see "answered prayers" as being things God gives us because we ask for it. And there certainly are verses in the Bible to support that... the ones that say, "Whatever you ask for when you pray, believe that you receive them and you shall receive them." Personally, I have NOT found those verses terribly helpful (a bit like the promise that he will act quickly), and so the "wait" and "no" principle comes into play.

The story of the guy who wanted a girl in high school who would have kept him from finding his present wife is a great one for illustrating that no answer (or, if you prefer a "no" answer) can be for our good. I hope we can all agree on that.

 

[bocannes]

Candle glow

That song is a good example of how something a person chooses was not the best one. In 1 Samuel 16, Samuel judged that Eliab was God's chosen. If he had not waited or consulted with God, he would have made a mistake and anointed Eliab.

The problem I have with calling that "unanswered prayer", is that it leads some people to the wrong kind of thinking. If we consider a prayer "unanswered" when God says "no", then we are reducing God to a wishing well. Prayer is more like a conversation with God and we need to try and listen to Him.

I think Luke1433 and I reached an understanding faster and that is the difference. I also don't think you answered my question, which made it harder for me to see your meaning. But I think we all agree on this principle: God does things beyond our understanding but that doesn't make Him unjust or unloving. hopeinGod describes the same thing. God's answers may take longer than we want or not be what we expected. As you say, it can be difficult for us to accept!

My real objection is likening God to the unjust judge. The Bible repeatedly says to take care of widows and repeatedly speaks against those that oppress widows or deny them justice. I don't think the right of the widow is in question, in the parable. She deserves justice.

The judge denies the widow. And why? The text says he doesn't care about people or fear God. So, for selfish reasons he refuses to give her justice. When he finally grants her justice, he doesn't act because he cares or for any good reason. He is just sick of her bothering him. For all this, Jesus then calls him unjust.

Thus, the point of the parable is still this: believe and don't give up. Even a godless, uncaring and unjust man can be conquered. And God is none of those things; He will certainly grant justice.

I agree with the principle you are describing but I think it should be drawn elsewhere. There are plenty of other passages in the Bible that deal with it and are good for discussing it.

Thanks, if you read all this. I know it's a long post

 

[bocannes]

...If, when we consider the seasons in the Lord...

Good post. This is a very interesting topic and difficult to understand. The Bible teaches us that some things happen because of the Enemy, some because of us and some because they are God's design. Discerning that is great wisdom.

 

[bocannes]

It's odd the more I read the Bible I borrowed from the library how God's personality so closely resembles ours. Jealous, angry, possessive, revengeful, hateful. ...

Translation can be tricky. God loves us as His very own, precious children. In that sense, He is "jealous" when we "hate" Him. But those words are lacking. In Hebrew, "hate" is used in an idiomatic comparison. It is actually like "do not choose". So when we read "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau" it is saying "I chose Jacob and not Esau".

The topic of free will is difficult. Even though God knows what we are going to do, it's still a choice.

Lastly, grace is just that - grace. The only requirement God has created for salvation is this: to earnestly ask it of God. If you invite Jesus into your life, then He will be there. The rest is an endless argument about deeds vs. belief that we will never make absolute.

 

[Luke1433]

I think Lilly's post comes closest to actually dealing with the subject of the OP (original post). It's funny how so many of us seem to think that God needs spin doctors to make him look "nicer" each time something comes up with doesn't exactly fit our human understanding of niceness.

But I think the crux of the article about the grumpy God is that God is ALLOWED to be grumpy, angry, jealous, or whatever he jolly well chooses to be. We have been so totally drenched in gooey sweet niceness as supposedly being the only true ingredient in Christianity, that the moment we read something about God getting angry or handing out a bit of judgment or not jumping when someone tells him to jump, the spin doctors all grab their keyboards and start defending God... like he needs it.

Bocannes, I love most of the stuff you write, but I would question this statement: "The only requirement God has created for salvation is this: to earnestly ask it of God." Sorry, but I don't see that at all in the teachings of Jesus. The usual word is "faith", and I'm confident it means faith in Jesus and all that he said. I would expect that everyone in hell is asking for salvation, and a good percentage of the people still alive would ask for it if they thought that is all it takes (after which they can get back to sinning). But if people can't read the teachings of Jesus and at least try to obey them, then they obviously don't have much faith in him, and they'll end up putting their faith in some teaching which perverts the grace of God instead. At least that's how *I* see it! : )

 

[bocannes]

"The only requirement God has created for salvation is this: to earnestly ask it of God." Sorry, but I don't see that at all in the teachings of Jesus. The usual word is "faith", and I'm confident it means faith in Jesus and all that he said. ...

Thanks. I'm glad you agree with most of what I wrote.

The problem above is probably just the way you're interpreting it. "Faith" is essentially what I mean but I've noticed people can be picky about the semantics (myself included). I think the usual word, biblically, is "belief". Call it what you will, faith, belief, etc. The key is to earnestly seek God. It's that change of heart that is vital. You don't earn God's love or salvation. It's a gift.

 

[Luke1433]

Thank you, Bocannes, for your honest and humble spirit. Much appreciated here.

I think that some discussions about the word 'faith' are much more than semantics, since faith in Satan and faith in God are pretty extreme differences. So a discussion about what (or who) our faith is IN is essential. I have found that most "believers" have faith in a DOCTRINE more than faith in Jesus. Of course, because the word "doctrine" does literally mean "teaching", it SHOULD be faith in a teaching, but the key is WHOSE teaching. There are various doctrines about salvation, but they all come from various religious leaders besides Jesus himself. Some of those doctrines even teach things such as that the teachings of Jesus are NOT essential for Gentiles (just for Jews).

As a conseqeunce, I get a bit tense when all of the anti-works stuff comes out the moment you mention Jesus. If our faith is in Jesus more than in Paul (or more rightly, misinterpretations of stuff Paul has said), then all of that anti-works stuff becomes exposed for the perversion that it is.

I agree that salvation is a gift. But God chooses to whom he will give it, and Jesus is pretty clear about at least some of the requirements to be such a recipient. (Note: a requirement to receive does not mean that one has earned it, any more than having the right number on your lottery ticket means you earned the bonanza.)

I like your statement (Bocannes) that "the key is to earnestly seek God". As Jesus put it, "Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." Such hunger for the truth is sadly lacking today, and so people have been only too willing to latch onto any easy excuse for NOT listening to Jesus.

 

[bocannes]

Yes. It's a complicated topic with a lot of arguing that isn't very beneficial. You're right. It does go far beyond semantics, in some cases.

But I think people would agree that it begins with the heart. That's important because some people feel that they have to "do better" before they can come to God.

On the other hand, as you indicated, others use grace as an excuse. If we want to know what we can "get away with", it's the wrong question. That's not seeking God. It comes back to the heart. How can we truly love and fear God if we don't seek His will? Obedience should be a goal for us, every day.

It's an interesting topic, when people can be open and understanding.

 

[Luke1433]

Thanks for those balanced and very true comments, Bo. Now... about the obedience thing. I'm wondering just how seriously you take obedience to the teachings of Jesus. Hopefully this is not straying too far away from the topic of this thread... about a "grumpy God".

As I see it, the teachings of Jesus "break" every one of us, and so it's very easy for us to see Jesus/God as demanding too much from us when we hear the stuff that Jesus taught (thus the "grumpy" element). I have found that just about anywhere I start with the actual "commands" that Jesus gave his followers, there is a negative reaction from most "believers", where they start saying that Jesus didn't really mean it to come across the way it does, and they think he really meant something quite different.

Could you share some of your experiences with trying to obey the things that Jesus told his followers to do? Thanks.

 

[Luke1433]

I earlier said:
"I have found that just about anywhere I start with the actual "commands" that Jesus gave his followers, there is a negative reaction from most "believers", where they start saying that Jesus didn't really mean it to come across the way it does, and they think he really meant something quite different."

And there has been no response to this comment since I made it. Does anyone have any thoughts on it?

 

[candle glow]

I earlier said:
"I have found that just about anywhere I start with the actual "commands" that Jesus gave his followers, there is a negative reaction from most "believers", where they start saying that Jesus didn't really mean it to come across the way it does, and they think he really meant something quite different."

And there has been no response to this comment since I made it. Does anyone have any thoughts on it?

I have had experience with this kind of thing before. It almost always happens when it comes to some kind of discipline, whether it be about materialism or emotional attachments.

One of the most common arguments I've heard is the "in your heart" doctrine, where people say they don't need to literally do what Jesus said to do, because God knows what's in a persons heart even if they do not act on the teachings.

To some degree, I believe this can be true. Jesus' teachings are spirit and the spirit can flow however it wants to.

However, almost always, the "in your heart" doctrine is used to escape literal obedience because in the end only God knows what is in a person's heart.

The best we can say is that our actions will reflect what is in our heart, but even then that is not always a guarantee.

 

[bocannes]

... I'm wondering just how seriously you take obedience to the teachings of Jesus. ...
As I see it, the teachings of Jesus "break" every one of us, and so it's very easy for us to see Jesus/God as demanding too much from us when we hear the stuff that Jesus taught (thus the "grumpy" element). ...
Could you share some of your experiences with trying to obey the things that Jesus told his followers to do? Thanks.

Hi Luke. Pardon the late response. I take obedience very seriously. What kind of example did you have in mind? Not too long ago, I started tithing my income out of obedience and I am confident it was the right thing to do. Discipline is important, even with a heart that is willing.

... However, almost always, the "in your heart" doctrine is used to escape literal obedience because in the end only God knows what is in a person's heart.

The best we can say is that our actions will reflect what is in our heart, but even then that is not always a guarantee.

Good post. This is very true. We should pay attention to the actions we choose, every day and what they say about us.

 

[Luke1433]

Hi Bocannes. Thank you for your response. You wrote:
"I take obedience very seriously. ... Not too long ago, I started tithing my income out of obedience..."

Thank you for that example of "obedience". I think it is a reasonable example of what I was wanting to examine. Very often we talk of "obedience" in general terms, as if obedience to many man-made traditions is the same as obedience to Jesus. (And sometimes we even CALL it "obedience to Jesus".)

What I am pushing for here is that we actually start with the Jesus of the Bible (and not the Jesus of churchy tradition), and examine the kind of things that he told his disciples to do. Can you give me some illustration of what Jesus taught his disciples about tithing? Did he have anything to say to them about what their attitude should be toward wealth, money, and material possessions?

Sadly, I feel that many Christians (even those of us who think we are "obeying" God) know very little about the kind of things that Jesus told his followers to do. So we end up obeying somone other than Jesus.

 

[bocannes]

Unfortunately, I agree. I think there is a lot of bad teaching out there and people following 'the church' rather than God (though I don't think this is intentional).

Tithing is a highly disputed topic but I'll try. Jesus is recorded as twice (possibly a single incident) telling the Pharisees that they tithe even down to the smallest income but they neglect the more important matters (Matthew 23:23). He says they should have done both. When else does He tell the Pharisees they are doing something even half-right?

So, tithing is not as important as love, justice and mercy but giving is still important. I think everyone would agree on that. How much should we give? It's easy to say that we should be guided by the spirit but that often leads to compromise and laziness. We're easily tempted to be selfish. Tithing is just the starting point for giving and it is to keep us disciplined (Deuteronomy 14:23). Setting aside the first fruits for the Lord is a vital principle from Genesis onward.

 

[Luke1433]

Thank you for your considered comments, Bocannes. It's true that Jesus did not condemn the Pharisees for tithing, but it is similar to things he said in other situations too, where he did not teach against no killing, for example, but then took it much farther by saying not to hate. So Jesus was aware of what the Old Testament taught about tithing. But he never told his disciples to tithe. Nor did he tell them to just give whatever they felt "led" to give. Do you know what he told his disciples to do, as far as giving to God is concerned? I'm asking this, because it's a fairly important part of Jesus' teachings, and yet it has never been taught in any church that I am aware of.

 

[hopeinGod]

In regard to tithing, it has been my experience, as a Christian since 1972, to witness a dramatic change in attitude and attention toward me by pastors of any particular fellowship once I begin to give.

While I was a struggling college student with little aid other than the GI Bill to afford my education, I could not give to the church in any other way other than to play the bass guitar during worship. Not surprisingly, in those days, I was little noticed, never approached by those in leadership, and seldom spoken to.

Later, after I was able to give, pastors made it a point to meet me at the entrance, shake my hand, ask how my week went, and generally appear friendly. The change, as I see it today, is unavoidable. Once one gives, out pops the "genuine" concern.

 

[Luke1433]

A very discerning observation, "Voice". Perhaps we could be asking ourselves whether there is anything in the teachings of Jesus about WHOM we are to give our wealth to? Maybe that is also something that has been overlooked as we have followed churchy "tradition" re (a) giving only a tithe; and (b) giving it to pastors to be used for themselves.

 

[bocannes]

Luke1433:

What do you say He taught the twelve?

Jesus taught to give freely and generously. He taught to give from your heart ('in secret') and not to justify yourself or glorify yourself (as the Pharisees). I don't see the comparison you made with His teaching on hate.

hopeinGod:

That's interesting. My churches have never treated me or anyone else differently for what they give.

 

[Luke1433]

Bocannes wrote: "What do you say He taught the twelve? Jesus taught to give freely and generously. He taught to give from your heart ('in secret') and not to justify yourself or glorify yourself (as the Pharisees)."

I am surprised by this response. We have four books that have been very carefully preserved, telling us quite clearly the things that Jesus taught. So, why would you say, "What do you say that he taught?" Is it really a matter of you or me or anyone else "saying" what he taught, when we have it in writing.

It would be helpful to have some actual references from the gospels to answer the two questions I asked. (BTW, I have no problem with your description of HOW we should give, but that was not what I was asking.) I wanted to know if Jesus told his disciples to give 10%, or whether maybe he used some other description for how much he wanted them to give. I also asked TO WHOM did he tell them to give their wealth?

It sounds (from what you said to Hope) like you are a pastor, and that you think the correct pattern is for the congregation to give to you. Is that correct? And do you have references from the teachings of Jesus to support that?

Surely if you ARE a pastor, then you should have enough knowledge of what Jesus actually taught to be able to answer my two questions.

 

[bocannes]

I think it's fair for you to answer my question. You said "Do you know what he told his disciples to do, as far as giving to God is concerned? I'm asking this, because it's a fairly important part of Jesus' teachings, and yet it has never been taught in any church that I am aware of.". I'd like you to explain what you mean (in the bold part). The question quoted was the question I was trying to reply to. The 'how' could easily be a part of what you asked, in my interpretation.

I am not a pastor, have never been one and have no plans of ever being one. My experiences are as I described and for many reasons, I can say confidently that we do not treat people like that (including pastors).