All Israel is saved

Buzz_B · Jan 16, 2018

Soar Like and Eagle said:
Why would God bless Jewish Christian as a remnant? God is a spirit and is doing a spiritual thing this does not include Jewish Christians. Where do you get this? it is a spiritual temple God is building, a spiritual remnant, a spiritual priesthood and yes all people will be blessed in the ages to come but not by some Jewish christian.

LOL. Are they trying to wear you out?

This is a good thread. I find the depth to which you have all been reasoning quite refreshing. It is so very rare on sites such as this.

Deadworm made what he feels is a good point, saying, "Any illusion we might have that this universal salvation will be restricted to the elect is removed by 11:32: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

Truthfully, that is not any different than what is said, here: "who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4

Look at Romans 11:32 again: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

Compare: Romans 11:14; 1 Corinthians 9:22 ("save some") Not all. "Some."

So I hope Deadworm recognizes that there are two groups: The elect called and chosen of God and those called but not chosen of God.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few chosen."

I agree with your thinking in many ways but I think that you may have confused being called and being chosen based only upon the parable of the ten virgins. I mean, lets face it, whether we be chosen as a part of the bride of Christ or we merely become those who respond to the call of the spirit and the bride, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17), it is only God that makes it grow. The planting of the seeds of truth and the watering are done the same way for all. "I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." 1 Corinthians 3:6

I compliment your realizing that the elect are the mount Zion of God. Psalms 78:68 "But chose the tribe of Judah, The mount Zion which he loved." (ASV)

Psalms 125:1 "They that trust in Jehovah Are as mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abideth for ever."(ASV)

God dwells in his holy mountain - or IOW- God dwells in his congregation of elect. And all who join themselves to that congregation, though they not all be elect, benefit from the holy spirit being there among those elect.

For many, this unfortunately is hidden by their failure to properly divide the Greek language before moving onto assume things in the English.

Soar Like and Eagle · Jan 16, 2018

Buzz_B said:
LOL. Are they trying to wear you out?

This is a good thread. I find the depth to which you have all been reasoning quite refreshing. It is so very rare on sites such as this.

Deadworm made what he feels is a good point, saying, "Any illusion we might have that this universal salvation will be restricted to the elect is removed by 11:32: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

Truthfully, that is not any different than what is said, here: "who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4

Look at Romans 11:32 again: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

So I hope Deadworm recognizes that there are two groups: The elect called and chosen of God and those called but not chosen of God.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few chosen."

I agree with your thinking in many ways but I think that you may have confused being called and being chosen based only upon the parable of the ten virgins. I mean, lets face it, whether we be chosen as a part of the bride of Christ or we merely become those who respond to the call of the spirit and the bride, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17), it is only God that makes it grow. The planting of the seeds of truth and the watering are done the same way for all. "I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." 1 Corinthians 3:6

I compliment your realizing that the elect are the mount Zion of God. Psalms 78:68 "But chose the tribe of Judah, The mount Zion which he loved." (ASV)

Psalms 125:1 "They that trust in Jehovah Are as mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abideth for ever."(ASV)

God dwells in his holy mountain - or IOW- God dwells in his congregation of elect. And all who join themselves to that congregation, though they not all be elect, benefit from the holy spirit being there among those elect.

For many, this unfortunately is hidden by their failure to properly divide the Greek language before moving onto assume things in the English.

So refreshing is your post. These deep things of growing learning experience. But no they are not wearing me out.

ClementofA · Jan 16, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Deadworm made what he feels is a good point, saying, "Any illusion we might have that this universal salvation will be restricted to the elect is removed by 11:32: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

Truthfully, that is not any different than what is said, here: "who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4

Look at Romans 11:32 again: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

Compare: Romans 11:14; 1 Corinthians 9:22 ("save some") Not all. "Some."

Save some. But from what? And does it deny the final destiny of all being reconciled to God as per, for example:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Soar Like and Eagle · Jan 16, 2018

ClementofA said:
Save some. But from what? And does it deny the final destiny of all being reconciled to God as per, for example:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

I like this one better.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s) It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

ClementofA · Jan 16, 2018

Buzz_B said:
This is a good thread. I find the depth to which you have all been reasoning quite refreshing. It is so very rare on sites such as this.

You guys might enjoy this discussion also:

Romans 9-11

Buzz_B · Jan 16, 2018

ClementofA said:
Save some. But from what? And does it deny the final destiny of all being reconciled to God as per, for example:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

We must take verses 14-19 together rather than blinding ourselves to interpreting verse 18 by itself.

That is what you have done. You used tunnel vision to decide what verse 18 meant and then after having decided what verse 18 meant you set about imposing your idea on the rest of the context.

Get rid of the idea that "many" means they have to be equal numbers so that you can understand that many does not have to mean "all."

Then you will be free to understand that in verse 18, just because the free gift of salvation is offered impartially to all, that does not mean that all will accept it. And yet it will remain true that many will accept it.

Your idea conflicts far too much of the scriptures for it to even be close to true.

Buzz_B · Jan 16, 2018

Soar Like and Eagle said:
I like this one better.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s) It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Surely you are not one who believes that literally all will be saved, are you?

Lets suppose that it were true that all will eventually be saved, even Satan. There could be good reason why God has not made that known in the Scriptures, for what reason would anyone have to repent if all are to be saved anyway? Atheists argue that one to the max. It is far better that they see that if they are going to love wickedness they need to be prepared to pay a serious price for that brand of love.

We could get into extremes rationalizing that the Lake of Fire merely means the destruction of the vile aspects of a person while the person his or her self goes onto be saved. But where do we cease our rationalizations? Are not Atheists then justified to argue that it matters not what they choose to love?

No, the idea that all will be saved is not in the Bible and for very good reason we need to be concerned not to go beyond what is written. For by going beyond with our speculative opinions we risk being found fighters against God all in the name of showing off our own wisdom and being so proud of what we believe we can see.

ClementofA · Jan 17, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Surely you are not one who believes that literally all will be saved, are you?

Many who post here are universalists, meaning all men will be saved. Fallen angels is another topic.

Buzz_B said:
for what reason would anyone have to repent if all are to be saved anyway?

"Hell", the lake of fire, the wrath of God.

Buzz_B said:
Are not Atheists then justified to argue that it matters not what they choose to love?

Does it matter if they live life in prison or free? Of course. Likewise avoiding "hell" matters, even though it's not a place where Love Omnipotent tortures everyone for eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Buzz_B · Jan 17, 2018

ClementofA said:
Many who post here are universalists, meaning all men will be saved. Fallen angels is another topic.

"Hell", the lake of fire, the wrath of God.

Does it matter if they live life in prison or free? Of course. Likewise avoiding "hell" matters, even though it's not a place where Love Omnipotent tortures everyone for eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

That last thing works only if one accepts the adulterous Grecian philosophical influence which resulted in a wrong belief in an immortal soul.

That would not apply to me.

Therefore I understand that the Lake of Fire is a mere symbol of everlasting-destruction. And I know too much to be attempted to be taught otherwise.

Even the word "Hell" is an adulterous addition to the Scriptures. It is not supported in the Jewish belief system but in sects beforehand and then after Israel's loss of a covenant with God, in writings by anti-christian sources.

Hell's base became built up by apostate Christians who did not have adequate spirituality to know the roots of things being pictured as consumed of fire based from off of Sodom and Gomorrah from which the Jews began to draw symbolism which can be traced through the OT.

jerry kelso · Jan 17, 2018

claninja said:
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
Romans 11:26

1.) All Israel will be saved is referring to ethnic Israel based on surrounding context.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Romans 11:28

2.) Only the remnant of Israel is saved

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Romans 9:27

How is ONLY the remnant of Israel saved AND ALL Israel saved?

3.) Not all Israel is Israel

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Romans 9:6-8

Only the ethnic remant is true Israel, therefore, God saving all the ethnic remnant of Israel chosen according grace, is saving All ethnic Israel.

Claninja,

1. All ethic Israel will be saved Romans 11:15-29 in the Generation when Christ sets up the KoH reign on earth. Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7.

2. Revelation 12 shows the Sun Clothed Woman who is Israel births the manchild (the 144,000), who go to the Heavenly Mt. Sion Revelation 14:1-5 and Israel, the Sun Clothed Woman who is the nation of Israel is preserved for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation in Petra and Bozrah while the remnant of her seed are scattered and the dragon goes after her in verse 17.
The Jewish remnant are in Revelation 11 praising God at the end of the tribulation as the two witnesses go up to Heaven.
Zechariah 13:8-9 is about 2/3 being cut off which are rebels of Israel.
The Jewish remnant will be saved but so will the nation of Israel that is preserved to the end. Read Hebrews 8:7-13. So all nation will be saved and become the head of the nations Isaiah 2:24 with Christ at the head of the whole earth Ezekiel 37:20 and Israel and Judah will be the two sticks United as one forever.
This couldn’t be talking about the church for they wil have been raptured 7yrs. prior to the Battle of Armageddon 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Revelation 5:9-10 in Heaven before the tribulation.
Revelation 11:18 receiving rewards in Heaven.
Revelation 19:7-10 in Heaven at the Marriage of the Lamb before the go out of Heaven to go to the Battle of Armageddon 11-15 the supper of the Great God.
One must understand the earthly calling of Israel concerning the Abrahamic Covenant and Davidic Covenant concerning the KoH reign and the KoG spiritual aspect of salvation according to the New Covenant.
God isn’t through with Israel and their eternal Covenants as in 2 Samuel 7:1-16 and 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
Israel has broken the covenant, not Godeven though he divorced them in Hosea but he will always bring them back when the generations hears his voice when their nation and their light is almost snuffed out for their heralding of the KoH message Matthew 24:14 that Christ will come back and destroy the nations and they will become Christ Revelation 11:15 and Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:1-4.
Only Israel has been trodden under the feet of men and cast out because they lost the savor of their salt Matthew 5:13. Jesus said the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Jerry kelso

Buzz_B · Jan 17, 2018

Time to leave this thread.

Soar Like and Eagle · Jan 17, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Surely you are not one who believes that literally all will be saved, are you?

Lets suppose that it were true that all will eventually be saved, even Satan. There could be good reason why God has not made that known in the Scriptures, for what reason would anyone have to repent if all are to be saved anyway? Atheists argue that one to the max. It is far better that they see that if they are going to love wickedness they need to be prepared to pay a serious price for that brand of love.

We could get into extremes rationalizing that the Lake of Fire merely means the destruction of the vile aspects of a person while the person his or her self goes onto be saved. But where do we cease our rationalizations? Are not Atheists then justified to argue that it matters not what they choose to love?

No, the idea that all will be saved is not in the Bible and for very good reason we need to be concerned not to go beyond what is written. For by going beyond with our speculative opinions we risk being found fighters against God all in the name of showing off our own wisdom and being so proud of what we believe we can see.

I do see this message in scripture and obviously you just saw it in the verse I posted. The lake of Fire is spiritual it is only mentioned in the most spiritual book ever written the Book of Revelation. Satan is not even apart of the picture for once Satan's purposes are complete he will have no more dust to eat and no longer have a job. God will deal with man's wickedness in the lake of Fire and yes he will punish/prune/chastise the wickedness but agely

Soar Like and Eagle · Jan 17, 2018

jerry kelso said:
Claninja,

1. All ethic Israel will be saved Romans 11:15-29 in the Generation when Christ sets up the KoH reign on earth. Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7.

2. Revelation 12 shows the Sun Clothed Woman who is Israel births the manchild (the 144,000), who go to the Heavenly Mt. Sion Revelation 14:1-5 and Israel, the Sun Clothed Woman who is the nation of Israel is preserved for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation in Petra and Bozrah while the remnant of her seed are scattered and the dragon goes after her in verse 17.
The Jewish remnant are in Revelation 11 praising God at the end of the tribulation as the two witnesses go up to Heaven.
Zechariah 13:8-9 is about 2/3 being cut off which are rebels of Israel.
The Jewish remnant will be saved but so will the nation of Israel that is preserved to the end. Read Hebrews 8:7-13. So all nation will be saved and become the head of the nations Isaiah 2:24 with Christ at the head of the whole earth Ezekiel 37:20 and Israel and Judah will be the two sticks United as one forever.
This couldn’t be talking about the church for they wil have been raptured 7yrs. prior to the Battle of Armageddon 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Revelation 5:9-10 in Heaven before the tribulation.
Revelation 11:18 receiving rewards in Heaven.
Revelation 19:7-10 in Heaven at the Marriage of the Lamb before the go out of Heaven to go to the Battle of Armageddon 11-15 the supper of the Great God.
One must understand the earthly calling of Israel concerning the Abrahamic Covenant and Davidic Covenant concerning the KoH reign and the KoG spiritual aspect of salvation according to the New Covenant.
God isn’t through with Israel and their eternal Covenants as in 2 Samuel 7:1-16 and 1 Chronicles 28:1-7.
Israel has broken the covenant, not Godeven though he divorced them in Hosea but he will always bring them back when the generations hears his voice when their nation and their light is almost snuffed out for their heralding of the KoH message Matthew 24:14 that Christ will come back and destroy the nations and they will become Christ Revelation 11:15 and Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:1-4.
Only Israel has been trodden under the feet of men and cast out because they lost the savor of their salt Matthew 5:13. Jesus said the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. Jerry kelso

Your whole concept of what God is doing is earthbound not spiritual. God is is trying to show us something amazing and spiritual and you see it naturally and physical you seem worshiping on the physical mountain, or physical Jerusalem BUT. God is a spirit

John 4: 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

jerry kelso · Jan 17, 2018

Soar Like and Eagle said:
Your whole concept of what God is doing is earthbound not spiritual. God is is trying to show us something amazing and spiritual and you see it naturally and physical you seem worshiping on the physical mountain, or physical Jerusalem BUT. God is a spirit

John 4: 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

soar like an eagle,

1. God being Spirit doesn’t do away with the physical.
Man was made in his image.
We are a triune being, body mind and soul which he has one that is of a higher substance.

2. We worship him in spirit and truth now.

3. That passage in John was spoken to the Samaritan woman.
Salvation was of the Jews who were to propagate the gospel to the heathen and Jerusalem was their capital.

4. The Samaritans were not worshipping God at all at that time and in the future they will not worship on their Mountain or in Jerusalem.

5. Our purpose and destiny is as the church is rulership on earth 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9-10 and the rest of the universe Colossians 1:16.
Israel the physical nation has an earthly call to be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7.
The Abrahamic Covenant concerning the land of Israel in the KoH reign and Jerusalem being the capital of the earth with Christ at the head and Israel and Judah becoming one stick forever Ezekiel 37 which deals with you he Davidic Covenant which is the physical KoH that the Jews rejected in Jesus first coming.
The first Coming was about the suffering Savior of Isaiah 53.
The second time will be about the conquering King who will take over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15.

6. The church is being trained for rulership training now through suffering of trials 2 Timothy 2:12
Israel will have to be purged from their sins Daniel 9:24-27; Ezekiel 37 for they will be backslidden because they must receive the New Covenant which was first offered them in Jeremiah 31:31-34. When they do Hebrews 8:7-13 will be fulfilled. All Israel will be saved and not have to be taught for they will know all things, etc.
Romans 11:25 says all Israel will be saved.

7. Israel was a full theocracy governed by God alone apart from the heathens.
The millennial kingdom will be a complete theocracy of God’s government that will govern the whole world with Christ the headship, Israel at the head of the nations with Jerusalem as their capital, and the church in different parts of the earth as Kings, Priests and Rulers in the earthly kingdom.
Proper context must be understood lest one wrenches it out of context. Jerry kelso

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 17, 2018

claninja said:
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
Romans 11:26

1.) All Israel will be saved is referring to ethnic Israel based on surrounding context.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Romans 11:28

2.) Only the remnant of Israel is saved

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Romans 9:27

How is ONLY the remnant of Israel saved AND ALL Israel saved?

3.) Not all Israel is Israel

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Romans 9:6-8

Only the ethnic remant is true Israel, therefore, God saving all the ethnic remnant of Israel chosen according grace, is saving All ethnic Israel.

Romans chapter 11, its context starts in Romans chapter 9. Specially these verses.
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

These verses not only literally say that the apostle defines Israel as believers only. It uses the children birth by promise to illustrate that the Israel of promise in chapter 11 are the believers.

Buzz_B · Jan 17, 2018

Soar Like and Eagle said:
I do see this message in scripture and obviously you just saw it in the verse I posted.

Being a qualified translator I do not agree with the way the way Romans 5:18 is translated in the version you quoted. So I saw the idea of universal salvation sought to be imposed of the translator there in the version only.

As far as I am concerned, if men are going to wrest the Scriptures that way they are unworthy of consideration and bound to pay dearly for it in the future.

Soar Like and Eagle said:
The lake of Fire is spiritual it is only mentioned in the most spiritual book ever written the Book of Revelation. Satan is not even apart of the picture for once Satan's purposes are complete he will have no more dust to eat and no longer have a job. God will deal with man's wickedness in the lake of Fire and yes he will punish/prune/chastise the wickedness but agely

Symbolic yes, spiritual, no. Abstracts are not spiritual. They are mere illustrations of intangible concepts. Spiritual things are real. Abstracts are not real though they may be used to pictorially describe real aspects of a real event.

Buzz_B · Jan 17, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Romans chapter 11, its context starts in Romans chapter 9. Specially these verses.
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

These verses not only literally say that the apostle defines Israel as believers only. It uses the children birth by promise to illustrate that the Israel of promise in chapter 11 are the believers.

That ones ethnic heritage has nothing to do with it is shown: 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." IOW's one cannot qualify on the basis of their fleshly bloodline. Philippians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:16

So why was the flesh used at all? Purely so that he could destroy death for death took up residence in the flesh: Hebrews 2:14; Galatians 5:24

My main concern is that after more than fifty years of study I am tired of hearing the same old distortions over and over as if they have some new way to look at it that I have never before seen and have not already proven to myself to be wrong. It is the same old same old with those who only wish to tell rather than listen and learn. There are too many self-appointed or error appointed teachers.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 17, 2018

Buzz_B said:
That ones ethnic heritage has nothing to do with it is shown: 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." IOW's one cannot qualify on the basis of their fleshly bloodline. Philippians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:16

So why was the flesh used at all? Purely so that he could destroy death for death took up residence in the flesh: Hebrews 2:14; Galatians 5:24

My main concern is that after more than fifty years of study I am tired of hearing the same old distortions over and over as if they have some new way to look at it that I have never before seen and have not already proven to myself to be wrong. It is the same old same old with those who only wish to tell rather than listen and learn. There are too many self-appointed or error appointed teachers.

What your saying is true. May not be the most convincing way to say though. It’s not like these truths are not transmitted through out scripture a hundred differant ways. How they just get ignored makes one wonder.

Buzz_B · Jan 17, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
What your saying is true. May not be the most convincing way to say though. It’s not like these truths are not transmitted through out scripture a hundred differant ways. How they just get ignored makes one wonder.

That is the problem for me. I see how they were able to ignore it and know that I could show them how that happened. But they will not allow me to even get a good start doing so because right away they begin to realize that what I say reveals they have believed wrong things. And the moment they sense their beliefs are challenged by the truth's unfolding, they revert to the defensive fight or flight mode driven by what seems like logic to them but is really driven by emotion.

Will they still themselves long enough to learn how symbolism was developed through the ages of the Hebrews? No, the moment what is revealed rubs against what they have been made comfortable believing they discount it with a basket full of further errant beliefs to discount its credibility and decide that it lacks worthiness of even being listened fully out.

False (or, mistaken) doctrine binds men up in quite a complex web, each strand of which supports other parts of the deception. If we pick off one thread of that web the others kick in to allow the web to stay in place while they find ways to rebuild the damaged thread. This is the power of strong delusion of 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

God has allowed all to get caught up in that web that the ones who prove to cling to it not caring that it is deception will eventually come to be all that are left clinging to it. And then , in keeping with the desires of their heart, God rewards them according to the lies they have loved and how they used those lies to justify taking it easy on themselves when it came to the sins they have loved. Those lies allowed them to find ways to feel they were OK while indulging in their true love of pet evils.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 17, 2018

Buzz_B said:
That is the problem for me. I see how they were able to ignore it and know that I could show them how that happened. But they will not allow me to even get a good start doing so because right away they begin to realize that what I say reveals they have believed wrong things. And the moment they sense their beliefs are challenged by the truth's unfolding, they revert to the defensive fight or flight mode driven by what seems like logic to them but is really driven by emotion.

Will they still themselves long enough to learn how symbolism was developed through the ages of the Hebrews? No, the moment what is revealed rubs against what they have been made comfortable believing they discount it with a basket full of further errant beliefs to discount its credibility and decide that it lacks worthiness of even being listened fully out.

False (or, mistaken) doctrine binds men up in quite a complex web, each strand of which supports other parts of the deception. If we pick off one thread of that web the others kick in to allow the web to stay in place while they find ways to rebuild the damaged thread. This is the power of strong delusion of 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

God has allowed all to get caught up in that web that the ones who prove to cling to it not caring that it is deception will eventually come to be all that are left clinging to it. And then , in keeping with the desires of their heart, God rewards them according to the lies they have loved and how they used those lies to justify taking it easy on themselves when it came to the sins they have loved. Those lies allowed them to find ways to feel they were OK while indulging in their true love of pet evils.

That’s what I call it to. A giant spiderweb of deciet, mostly in regards to their fake end time teachings.

All Israel is saved

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