All Graces Through Mary?

[Chris†opher Paul]

All the graces which flow from the redemption of Jesus Christ are granted to the human family through the motherly intercession of Mary.

Are Catholics bound to believe this to be true?

 

[isshinwhat]

Here is part of an article by Dave Armstrong, but I'm honestly not sure, s0uljah...

They are binding in terms of required submission of all Catholics, by virtue of their clear and repeated proclamation by the "ordinary magisterium" (repeated papal statements, in encyclicals) A lot of Catholics (and non-Catholic observers) seem to think that one can disagree simply because a doctrine hasn't been proclaimed ex cathedra. This is liberal theology and ecclesiology (and was used notably in the wanton and organized dissent with regard to Humanae Vitae in 1968). Ex cathedra proclamations (such as the Immaculate Conception in 1854 and the Assumption in 1950) constitute the highest level of the extraordinary magisterium, and represent the greatest degree of required obedience, yet the ordinary magisterium is also binding on all the faithful, as a matter of obedience. And that includes Eastern Catholics, of course. This is not a matter of custom and discipline, but of doctrine and dogma.

Furthermore, the teaching on Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix (albeit somewhat less explicit) is part of Vatican II, which is also the extraordinary magisterium, and hence, infallible and de fide, because it is an Ecumenical Council, with bishops definitively proclaiming together Catholic teaching, in union with the pope. So Catholics may not disagree with whatever is taught by such a Council.

 

[kern]

So what if a Catholic does disagree with something taught by such a council? Are they obligated to leave the church? Are they no longer Catholic?

-Chris

 

[isshinwhat]

So what if a Catholic does disagree with something taught by such a council? Are they obligated to leave the church? Are they no longer Catholic?

If it is formally defined by a Council, then that would make the Catholic professing a variant belief a heretic. There are two types of heresy, formal and material. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says of heresy:

The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity, as distinct from wanton opposition, supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

 

[devoted]

Pray about sOul,

There is no such thing as too much devotion to our lady but there is false devotion and such would be if it led you away from Jesus not to him.

Seeing how true devotion to our lady can only lead you to him, how can there be too much devotion, can one be led to him too much?

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by kern
So what if a Catholic does disagree with something taught by such a council? Are they obligated to leave the church? Are they no longer Catholic?

-Chris

 

But who would want to disagree with this?!? That we have a Mother that leads us to true perfection through devotion to her in which she can only lead us to Jesus.

Isn't that the objective of Catholics? Perfection, as our father in heaven is perfect. Then what better way to achive this perfection of soul than to give ourselves totally to Mary who is perfection herself.

Mary can not do anything outside of the will of God, if you ask her for the grace to do something and it is not in line with God's will then she does not over ride that. She has no will other than that which is united to God's own divine will so nothing you ask, no intersession is outside of God's will.

She prays and petitions that God's will be done, and she tells us "do what ever he tells you..."

 

[LilyLamb]

She prays and petitions that God's will be done, and she tells us "do what ever he tells you..."


well said ...

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by LilyLamb
She prays and petitions that God's will be done, and she tells us "do what ever he tells you..."


well said ...

 

And when we give our will to her she can only bring about God's will for us.

 

[pax]

My current understanding was that every grace came from God, through the merits of Jesus Christ who was brought into the world by Our Blessed Mother. I thought that since she brought Christ into the world (with a lot of help from the Holy Spirit), that was why she was seen as Mediatrix, but after reading some of this I thought maybe I was wrong. Could someone please post a link or give me a reference to any documents dealing with this.

Pax

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by pax
My current understanding was that every grace came from God, through the merits of Jesus Christ who was brought into the world by Our Blessed Mother. I thought that since she brought Christ into the world (with a lot of help from the Holy Spirit), that was why she was seen as Mediatrix, but after reading some of this I thought maybe I was wrong. Could someone please post a link or give me a reference to any documents dealing with this.

Pax

 

No, your right, why do you think you are wrong?

 

[isshinwhat]

That and we believe that she prays for everyone, thus her prayers are involved in every dispensation of grace...

 

[pax]

To devoted-

From some of the posts on this subject in another thread I was starting to get a slightly different impression, but that may have been because of a combination of fast reading and being tired. I was just double checking that what I had thought was correct.

 

[pax]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
That and we believe that she prays for everyone, thus her prayers are involved in every dispensation of grace...

So when I don't explicitly ask for the Blessed Mother's intercession I get it anyway??

 

[pax]

Never mind, I think I get it now. I read an explanation @ http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm . It helped a lot.

Pax

 

[devoted]

That was a good link, thanks.

sOul.,

Check out that link, it is most helpful.



"... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.'"

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by devoted
Pray about sOul,

There is no such thing as too much devotion to our lady but there is false devotion and such would be if it led you away from Jesus not to him.

Seeing how true devotion to our lady can only lead you to him, how can there be too much devotion, can one be led to him too much?

I like what you say here.

It does seem like some Catholics have false devotion. I am probably getting the wrong impression but it seems that the Pope himself is too into Mary.

Mary should not be made to overshadow Christ.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by LilyLamb
She prays and petitions that God's will be done, and she tells us "do what ever he tells you..."


well said ...

Yeah that sounds all well and good, but when people take it a step further, like devoted has shown me, and add words like "serve Mary" and "submit to Mary" I get upset.

The first commandment says we serve and submit to God alone and Jesus said the same thing.



See? The next thing he did was add this into the mix:

nd when we give our will to her she can only bring about God's will for us.

I am not giving my will to Mary and I won't be a Catholic if I am required to believe this. That would suck, because I agree with everything else 100%

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by devoted
  Isn't that the objective of Catholics? Perfection, as our father in heaven is perfect. Then what better way to achive this perfection of soul than to give ourselves totally to Mary who is perfection herself.

Mary is perfection? I thought that no person that walked this Earth was perfect by himself other than Jesus.

It is not the fact that Mary is perfect that I debate rather that you say that she is perfection "herself". If she is perfect it was not by her hands but instead the perfection was given to her by God.

Do I make any sense??

It just seems like we are walking a very fine line. If we are not extremely careful Mary could become a false god in at least some of our eyes.

I love your Pope and wish that he could remain pope forever. But at the same time I hope that the next pope will refrain from the need to make Mary more.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Yeah that sounds all well and good, but when people take it a step further, like devoted has shown me, and add words like "serve Mary" and "submit to Mary" I get upset.

The first commandment says we serve and submit to God alone and Jesus said the same thing.



See? The next thing he did was add this into the mix:



I am not giving my will to Mary and I won't be a Catholic if I am required to believe this. That would suck, because I agree with everything else 100%

I am beginning to feel as your twin.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Well, you are my Stormy sister! We will get through this one way or another.

P.S.

You are right, she was perfect only because she was "FULL" of Grace, due to God alone.