All grace gospel and Hebrews 12:5,6

[LowPost42]

So I'm fairly entrenched in the grace gospel camp (a step removed from full on universalism).

I'm struggling to understand Hebrews 12:5,6 in light of grace:

“And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.””
‭‭
King Jimmy replaces chasten with scourgeth.

The footnotes refer to proverbs 3:11,12:

“My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.”
‭‭
I get the correcting and disciplining part - being taught right from wrong.

I struggle with the "harsh whipping" that scourging suggests; as it's universally a punishment. Punishment is for lawbreakers.

Especially in light of 1 John 4:18:

“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”

The only thing I can figure is that the Hebrews attributed EVERYTHING to God. Got leprosy? God did it. Got cured? God cured you. Amalekites killed your kids? God did it.

But it's erroneous, based on "the thief comes to steal, kill, destroy".

Other thoughts on how Hebrews 12:5,6 fits the gospel of grace?

 

[Stancet]

I understand the confusion. Hebrews is a very difficult book to interpret, but there is a good interpretation.

Hebrews is a book written to Jewish Christians who were scattered throughout the Roman empire who were facing tremendous persecution for their nationality and their belief in Jesus. The writer of Hebrews is trying throughout the book to encourage those Jews not to give up and go back to ritualistic Judaism because rewards await those who endure.

In light of life's hardships, we do trip and stumble. Bear in mind, I have known pastors who have gotten sick for being disobedient to God, but don't assume all sickness is of God. Sometimes it's just a test of faithfulness. But it's true that God will use any means He has to in order to bring us back to Himself, even if that means punishing us. Don't forget he does it all out of love.

1 John, however, is a more optimistic and encouraging book about building up believers in the faith. Punishment in this context refers to eternal separation from God in hell. Once we accept Jesus as savior, this thankfully no longer becomes an option. But since we can still fall into sin God will use other ways of getting our attention, which can seem scary, but if we learn the lesson well we will be better off and thankful for God's guiding hand.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

“Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[LowPost42]

“Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭ESV‬‬

I understand that storms will come. I don't believe God sends the storm.

It's like receiving a prophetic word that says trouble is coming. It's not to scare the believer, but to encourage them that God has already seen the coming trouble and to know that the believer is not forgotten.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I understand that storms will come. I don't believe God sends the storm.

It's like receiving a prophetic word that says trouble is coming. It's not to scare the believer, but to encourage them that God has already seen the coming trouble and to know that the believer is not forgotten.

“Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:1-2‬ ‭ESV‬‬

I would say in context with the Hebrews passage God may not be directly responsible for suffering, but he certainly can use it for our good and his purposes.

Romans 8:28

 

[LowPost42]

@Stancet

The pastors example you cite is where I get twitchy.

I'm fully ok with God allowing circumstances around us (I believe free will and Gods unwillingness to violate it create less-than-great circumstances); but I'm not sure that God authors the pain and hardship in our life.

Rather, I believe it further solidifies "He uses all things for good for those who are called according to His purpose."

There's a difference between "I know what's coming" and "I made it happen".

So when we don't see any NT instances of Jesus making people sick or causing hardships to "teach lessons" it's hard to believe that the invisible God would do something contrary.

 

[Ahermit]

God is Truth. When we are untrue God is not with us. When we are true God is with us. It really is that simple. That is how our parents are with us too. The rebuke and punishment bit is our conscience (God's Truth) working us over.

God gave us free-will. Which means we are totally responsible for our own thoughts and actions. In other words, we cannot blame others - including God, for how we think, perceive, feel and act. Which, also includes how we perceive the Bible. Remember, God is Truth and the expression of Truth is unconditional love. Any punishments 'perceived' is just God allowing what is untrue, or true, to unfold.

An example of God not with us when we are untrue is in Luke 13:27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'... This is not God punishing us, but God being true. It is our problem, self-sabotage, when we are untrue, not God's.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

So I'm fairly entrenched in the grace gospel camp (a step removed from full on universalism).

I'm struggling to understand Hebrews 12:5,6 in light of grace:

“And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.””
‭‭
King Jimmy replaces chasten with scourgeth.

The footnotes refer to proverbs 3:11,12:

“My son, do not despise the LORD’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.”
‭‭
I get the correcting and disciplining part - being taught right from wrong.

I struggle with the "harsh whipping" that scourging suggests; as it's universally a punishment. Punishment is for lawbreakers.

Especially in light of 1 John 4:18:

“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”

The only thing I can figure is that the Hebrews attributed EVERYTHING to God. Got leprosy? God did it. Got cured? God cured you. Amalekites killed your kids? God did it.

But it's erroneous, based on "the thief comes to steal, kill, destroy".

Other thoughts on how Hebrews 12:5,6 fits the gospel of grace?

Hebrews is written by Jew to Jews who became christians but because of prosecution they went back to Judaism.
He want's them to endure the prosecution and is explaing why : to gain rewards in heaven.

He is explaining to them aswell that they can't go back to simply making offering for thier sin because Christ was our offering once for all . He was the Lamb of God .

In 12:5-6 he want's them to go back and endure prosecution.
In 12:8 you read of partakers , in what ? In inheritance of Kingdom , you won't inherit your part of Kingdom if you don't want to suffer with Christ.