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All God wanted from the Apostles were saved, or did He want more?

God obtained the salvation of everyone He wanted through the apostles?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 75.0%

  • Total voters
    4
  • This poll will close: .

FutureAndAHope

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Good day,

Not so sure I agree it is the Keyword but the grammatical use (function) of the word as a verb along with the others in the whole of the written thought.

Lets look at the meaning then break down the implication of how the word functions among the whole.


Thayer Definition:
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
2a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate
Part of Speech: verb

How many verbs do you see here? Who / what is preforming the actions of the verbs?

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

In Him,

Bill
For the first 400 years of church history the church taught "free will", not predestination. Justin Martyr especially brought up the topic of predestination, and foreknowledge.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr 110- 145 : First Apology - Ch 43)​

... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Justin Martyr 110-145: Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)​

and

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Justin Martyr 110-145: Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)​

He as an early church writer did not see foreknowledge, the way a Calvanist, or person believing in predestionation would. He made it very clear, God did not create two groups, but man would be judged by his own actions. As we see here:

But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;​

He and all leaders for the first 400 years made similar statements.

Foreknowledge was not seen as "fore-chosen", but rather knowing that given certain situations there would be people who were wicked, and those who would respond to God's offer.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This would be the same as saying:

Rom 8:29 For the group of people that God knew beforehand would respond to him (of both Jew and Gentitle), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover those ones He planned to give life due to their belief in Him and acceptance of His living word (John 14: 15-24), these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

It was not that God had a looking glass that spanned eternity, and knew what people would do. We actually see in Genisis that God, having preplanned creation, and its limitations, found that man did not respond to his message in the way He had desired, and He regretted creating man.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."​
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Where do we find in the bible the slightest indication that Abraham and Moses would intercede for others after they had died?

But the verses don't teach that there is a post-death chance to believe on the Saviour and be saved.

No. The bible teaches that hell is eternal, and there is no "way out."

Not sure what your comments about Augustine, Pentecost, and what you call the "Paschal mystery" have to do with what we are discussing - sorry.
The Bible is very much a summary, and it does not say Abraham drinks, but we can be sure he does, and sits and walks... The Bible is not somehow complete to discern every truth there is.

1 Timothy 4:10 speaks of God saving unbelievers. It mentions believers in the same sentence. So not that the unbelievers are the faithful and Christian persons while they are being saved. Those who hear and believe are "especially" those who are saved. What happens to a deceased embryo? We can know for certain that God has them. Theology teaches God is good and the dominant might.

The Bible doesn't teach there is no way out of Hell, only that there was no way across from the underworld paradise to the Hell of flames people were in there. Jesus made a way out of Hell. Angels of light can come and go. Death could not hold Jesus. Now Jesus is glorified. The angels can carry His powers.

David your view looks Augustinian and Calvinist regarding the Bible. Jesus gifted people, then after, the apostles were gifted at Pentecost weeks later. The first gifted were as from Peter, were once captives, not people from Paradise.

The Pascal Mystery is about the great cosmic battle the old church believed happened in Hell, between light and darkness.

It is not a good idea to follow a strict "science" of Sola Scriptura. To say that if scripture can't prove it, it is not true. That shaves off much power and practice from Jesus and the Spirit, the Spirit of prophecy and truth.

Millard J Erickson says the gift of tongues cannot be verified from scripture, while the late Gordon Fee showed it was. Both academics. An atheist might say, "you can't prove to me that God exists." And a Christian may reply "You can't prove He doesn't."
 
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David Lamb

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The Bible is very much a summary, and it does not say Abraham drinks, but we can be sure he does, and sits and walks... The Bible is not somehow complete to discern every truth there is.
Abraham drinking, sitting and walking makes no difference to us as Christians today. However, the question of whether Abraham and others are able to intercede for us after their deaths does make a difference. Jesus Christ intercedes in heaven for His people, and He is said in the bible to be the only Mediator between God and man:

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,” (1Ti 2:5 NKJV)
1 Timothy 4:10 speaks of God saving unbelievers. It mentions believers in the same sentence. So not that the unbelievers are the faithful and Christian persons while they are being saved. Those who hear and believe are "especially" those who are saved. What happens to a deceased embryo? We can know for certain that God has them. Theology teaches God is good and the dominant might.

The Bible doesn't teach there is no way out of Hell, only that there was no way across from the underworld paradise to the Hell of flames people were in there. Jesus made a way out of Hell. Angels of light can come and go. Death could not hold Jesus. Now Jesus is glorified. The angels can carry His powers.
Yet Jesus spoke of "everlasting punishment." It wouldn't be everlasting if there was an escape route.
David your view looks Augustinian and Calvinist regarding the Bible.
When I first believed these things, it was because I found them in the bible; I hadn't at that time heard of Augustine and Calvin.
Jesus gifted people, then after, the apostles were gifted at Pentecost weeks later. The first gifted were as from Peter, were once captives, not people from Paradise.
The Pascal Mystery is about the great cosmic battle the old church believed happened in Hell, between light and darkness.
I don't understand what you mean by the "Pascal Mystery".
It is not a good idea to follow a strict "science" of Sola Scriptura. To say that if scripture can't prove it, it is not true. That shaves off much power and practice from Jesus and the Spirit, the Spirit of prophecy and truth.
Without sola scriptura, we are left wondering what out of all the varying claims made by people about supposed truths that are not in Scripture are in fact actually true.
Millard J Erickson says the gift of tongues cannot be verified from scripture, while the late Gordon Fee showed it was. Both academics. An atheist might say, "you can't prove to me that God exists." And a Christian may reply "You can't prove He doesn't."
Scripture doesn't attempt to prove that God exists. It presupposes that He does, opening with the words, "In the beginning, God...."
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Abraham drinking, sitting and walking makes no difference to us as Christians today. However, the question of whether Abraham and others are able to intercede for us after their deaths does make a difference. Jesus Christ intercedes in heaven for His people, and He is said in the bible to be the only Mediator between God and man:

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,” (1Ti 2:5 NKJV)

Yet Jesus spoke of "everlasting punishment." It wouldn't be everlasting if there was an escape route.

When I first believed these things, it was because I found them in the bible; I hadn't at that time heard of Augustine and Calvin.

I don't understand what you mean by the "Pascal Mystery".

Without sola scriptura, we are left wondering what out of all the varying claims made by people about supposed truths that are not in Scripture are in fact actually true.

Scripture doesn't attempt to prove that God exists. It presupposes that He does, opening with the words, "In the beginning, God...."
Abraham and other saints intercessions are not like Jesus' ones, Jesus is far greater. They make an invisible and difficult to handle difference. Jesus is still the only way to the Father.

Not all punishment is everlasting.

The Paschal Mystery is the Easter Mystery.

Luther who invented Sola Scriptura was a Continuationist and Erickson is a Cessationist, Gordon Fee was a charismatic or Pentecostal Continuationist.

I am saying we can't settle for only believing what can be proven by scripture alone. The Bible is only a summary.
 
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David Lamb

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Abraham and other saints intercessions are not like Jesus' ones, Jesus is far greater. They make an invisible and difficult to handle difference. Jesus is still the only way to the Father.

Not all punishment is everlasting.
I agree. We read in the New Testament about God temporarily chastising His people. But we were talking about the punishment which Jesus calls everlasting.
The Paschal Mystery is the Easter Mystery.
You mean some mystery associated with Jesus Christ rising from the dead?
Luther who invented Sola Scriptura was a Continuationist and Erickson is a Cessationist, Gordon Fee was a charismatic or Pentecostal Continuationist.
I have heard of Luther, but not the other two. I don't believe Luther invented the doctrine known as sola scriptura.
I am saying we can't settle for only believing what can be proven by scripture alone. The Bible is only a summary.
Well, we have in Acts the example of the Bereans:

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” (Ac 17:10-11 NKJV)

The bible is God's word. I would far rather rely on His word than on other sources.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I am saying we can't settle for only believing what can be proven by scripture alone. The Bible is only a summary.
The way to look at this is that the Bible was written by people who had contact with Jesus, this is why the Bible is so important. If anything external writing goes against the Bible, then we can safely know it is not true. The problem with the idea of Sola Scriptura however, is it can be an excuse for not looking into other writings which would be helpful.

As an example, even in this thread there is dispute around "Free Will" or Synergy, and Predestination. Both of these arguments are based on Scripture, or the Bible. It makes sense then to look outside the scripture to see what was actually taught in the church after the Bible. As a person who believes strongly that "all people will be extended grace, but what they do with it determines salvation", it is not only wise, but it backs my position to read the Early Church writings, which came after the Apostles. I have read all documents from around the first 150 years and these support my view, and AI assures me that for 400 years, free will or synergy was exclusively taught. This, to a thinking person, shows what the church actually taught in the beginning regarding how a person is saved. Opposed to what Augustine introduced later, which was determinism.

Why this is even important is that the two views paint very different pictures of the nature of God. One where God is expending his hope to all, and one where God is deliberately hiding His knowledge. The former draws the sinner to God, the latter is repulsive to many. As such is putting a stumbling block before people.

Predestination is a Protestant tradition, but we must be very careful of any tradition, be it Catholic or Orthodox, or Protestant. We need to go back to the Bible, and if there is a dispute on scripture, in my opinion the Early Church, to form our doctrines.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I agree. We read in the New Testament about God temporarily chastising His people. But we were talking about the punishment which Jesus calls everlasting.

You mean some mystery associated with Jesus Christ rising from the dead?

I have heard of Luther, but not the other two. I don't believe Luther invented the doctrine known as sola scriptura.

Well, we have in Acts the example of the Bereans:

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” (Ac 17:10-11 NKJV)

The bible is God's word. I would far rather rely on His word than on other sources.
The punishments can be everlasting, Jesus mentions the resurrection of the dead, the sea giving up it's dead... then judgement... there are two judgements. And it is not a good fate to be buried with your spirit remaining in the grave. But there is also everlasting fire, and a transfer of some to the lake burning with fire and sulpher, where Satan and the false prophet go to eternal punishment. That comes after the mention of Satan being released after the thousand years. Then the final imprisonment of him in the burning lake.

Not taking scripture literally and remember Jesus as the way out, I think there is a way out possible for some who die.
 
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